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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Eduard Nieuport 16 "Weekend edition"
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 03:52 AM UTC

The day was grey and dismal. The wind howled with a icy breath coming from the East. The young and frightened coachman drove his four horse team in a frenzy away from Castle Eduard. Visibly shaken he was unprepared for the vision of the cloaked and hooded figure that suddenly appeared at his side. A boney hand pointed to the western setting sun as if to urge his the man to drive his coach to the far horizon before the red ball diasappeared into the encroaching shroud of night. In the coach the well known erie green glow crept out from the leather covers in the windows. Another Eduard creation was on its way to the marletplaces of the world. The young coachmen was also unprepared for the the shudder and shaking of the coach as it broke free from the earth horses and coach floated free and seemed to excell to a far greater speed. It was a sudden grasp of the boney hand that kept the young man from fallingin to the deep cavernous gorge that was the left side of the road's shoulder. Snatched fom certain death he looked sheepishly at the hooded figure, who spoke. "That will do coachman, that will do..."
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:05 AM UTC
The Eduard elf has earmarked a kit for the members of Aeroscale. The Nieuport 16 "Weekend" kit # #8426 arrived today.

These sprues are typicqal for the Nieuport 11 / 16 kit except that Eduard has not included the LeRhone 110hp typical of the Nieuport 16. The 80hp LeRhone is included which is typical for the Nieuport 11.

Priced at 10.95 USD and top quality engraving are additional pluses for this kit. The kit decals represents N977 flown by Adjutant Maxime Lenoir from escadrille N23.

In French see also;
http://www.aeroplanedetouraine.fr/maxime_lenoir.pdf
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:30 AM UTC

The main difference between the Nieuport 11 and the 16 is the engine. The type 16 usually did have the head rest. The type 11 had the 80hp LeRhone and the type 16 had the heavier 110hp LeRhone. Here is a Nieuport 16 airframe with what appears to be an experimental installation of the 100hp Gnome Monosoupape rotary. (Or it could be a type 16 trainer under going repairs.)

NOTE: hinging on some of the comments from Matt Bittner I have continued to do some research on the above image. I have to admit he may well be right on some of the details. The reader will find that I mention later on this image MAY be of a German copy? These copies were meant to give the German a successful Sesqui-plane layout. ( meaning smaller lower wing than the top.)

Note the angled skeletal structure of the fuselage. On the Nieuport 11 and the 17 the fuselage skeleton was 90 degerees vertical without any angled structures but the extra weight from the 110hp leRhone caused the angled vertical structure to be incorporated. Since the 110hp weighed more than the 100hp pictured here I am inclined to belive this was standard for the type 16 no matter what engine was installed.


JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:50 AM UTC
An experienced pilot when the war began, Lenoir transferred to the French Air Service at the end of 1914. On two occasions in 1916, he was wounded in action while serving as a pursuit pilot with N23. While on an artillery support mission, he was killed in action when his SPAD VII was shot down in Oct. 1916.

"Marechal-des-Logis pilot of Escadrille N23. Non-commissioned officer always demonstrating the best fighting spirit during the course of his numerous combats, more often behind enemy lines than behind our own. In all his actions he showed contempt for death. On 15 March 1916, while protecting a long distance reconnaissance and having his machine gun jam during the course of a combat, he completed his mission and managed to ward off enemy planes by a series of audacious maneuvers. He returned with his plane riddled by bullets." Médaille Militaire citation, 15 March 1916.

"Adjudant pilot of Escadrille N23. Pursuit pilot beyond compare, setting the highest example of energy and self-sacrifice. During eleven months of uninterrupted service in his Escadrille, he has had 91 successful combats, returning frequently with his plane riddled by bullets. He downed his sixth enemy plane on 4 August 1916." Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur citation, 9 August 1916.
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 08:08 AM UTC
Eduard has used this set of decals previously in their Limited Edition series.
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 09:07 AM UTC
The weekend series are strictly plastic and decals kits. Whether its this basic fare or the more advanced Limited Edtion set its a good time. Basic kits are not just for the beginner or average modeler. Sometimes a Weekend build can be stretched into a couple just for the fun of it. That is what modeling is for right?

Here at Aeroscale we try to give you the chance to shoot for the stars. Whether its just a basic "Weekend Series" kit, "Limited Edition", a "Combo kit" and yes even a "Royal" build. In the Eduard constellation this is a fixed star.
Merlin
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 11:15 AM UTC
Hi Stephen

As usual the depth of research you wheel out on these occasions is a fantastic boon to us all! I picked up the Limited Edition version a while back on one of my regular perilous expeditions through the daunting Surrey Hills to visit Dorking Models , so I'm looking forward to seeing how you tackle the engine-mod etc.

All the best

Rowan
mbittner
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Posted: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:51 PM UTC
Stephen,

Where did you get that "Nie.16" cockpit photo? To me it looks more "Hanriot-ish" than "Nieuport-ish".
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 02:45 AM UTC
Hi Matt. It is part of the Lafayette Foundation collection. It either originated with Ross Fenn or was a gift from Greg VanWyngarden.

1. I admit the struts don't look very much like the Hanriot or Nieuport.
Too thick for either. But there is no secondary socket for the longer struts that travel from the upper longeon out to the undersurface of the top wing.

2. The overlap of the formers at the top of the upper longeron seem to allow for a "cheek fairing" But the wole airframe seems to be inprocess of being rerigged. This maybe an unfinished attempt at reinforcing the angled fuselage ribs for the hard landings experienced regulary by trainers.

3. The undersurface definately has the upward curve of the Nieuport. The Hanriot has a horizontal longeron from the firewall back to the cockpit.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 02:32 PM UTC
The build; First things first . The instruction are formatted at 6 page multiple step exploded views. Eduard has gone away from labeling steps in the Weekend series. In printing the instructions Eduard’s scribes put an insert between page 2 & 3 of the instructions. It contains pages 4& 5. The sixth page is the back of the last page. Minor critique but younger modelers might get confused.

I would like to build this kit OOB (out of the box) but there is a bit of a problem with the rotary as mentioned before. It represents the 80hp and should be the 110hp. When it comes to that portion of the build I will try to show how to use the kit parts to fix the dilema. ( Though I have 9 complete Vector LeRhone rotaries in my spares.) Also the plastic Lewis gun mount is a bit out of scale in the diameter / thickness of the parts.
mbittner
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Posted: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 - 04:55 PM UTC
Look at the photo of the cockpit and the photo of the "finished" Nie.16 you provide. There's a tube in the open cockpit that runs from the "gas/oil" tank to the bottom of the fuselage, right where the exhaust cut-out exists on the Nieuports. The photo of the "finished" Nie.16 doesn't have said tube (nor have I ever seen this in any other Nieuport photo).

It might not be an Hanriot, but I still don't think that cockpit shot is of a Nieuport.

Not only that, but the position of the aforementioned gas/oil tank wouldn't be correct for a Nieuport. Especially since the Vickers would sit right on top, heating it up as the gun is fired. If memory serves, one tank sat on the firewall directly behind the engine, while the other tank was on the other side of the firewall, "in" the cockpit.
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 03:06 AM UTC
Hey Matt,

First the image I provided was of the Italian Nieuport XI I did some years ago. Since it and the XVI were visibly similar as Nieuport products it seemed reasonable.

Next the Tube had me going for a time. Then Aeroscale member MerlinV kindly shared his docs on the Gnome Monosoupape. I had been doing the Gavia Pfalz E.I build here and pulled a faux paux. MerlinV contacted me on some of the finer points. One such bit was that the air induction was designed differently on all of the Gnomes. You note that there are no induction pipes that you would normally see on the LeRhone types on the Nieuport 16 airframe in question. The engine is a Gnome and the air induction is apparently through that small tube.

Normally the tanks you speak of are the fuel and oil cells. On the firewall behind the engine is the oil tank. The fuel tank did sit directly under the forward upper cowling for the LeRhone version. Since there were no guns on a trainer in this case there would be no concern.

Here is a "normal" Nieuport XI forward fuselage.
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 01:54 PM UTC
Greetings all;
For a very good source on Nieuports I highly recommend,

"PUBLISHED to coincide with the US theatrical release of the new Flyboys motion picture, Albatros Productions, Ltd., - World leaders in WWI aeronautical publishing - present the true story of the famed Lafayette Escadrille’s Nieuport flyers.

The enthralling narrative is supported by over 55 archive photos and 11 pages of authentic colour profiles illustrating the iconic Lafayette Nieuports as never before. Recent research by leading authorities in the field such as Alan Toelle and Bernard Klayelé have resulted in Bob Pearson’s 35 all-new revisonist profiles of these classic aeroplanes. Detailed captions accompany the illustrations and this unique Special also includes 8 pages of 1:32 scale Nieuport 11/16/17/21 scale drawings for modellers of Special Hobby and Hobbycraft kits along with a stunning cover by Robert Karr! . . ."

(Some of my comments concerning the French Multi coloured camouflage have roots in this fine monograph.)

http://www.windsockdatafilespecials.co.uk/nieuport-flyers-of-the-lafayette-47-p.asp

mbittner
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Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 05:00 PM UTC
Stephen,

So what exactly are you saying?

Your "naked" Nie.11 photo also does the other photo "in". I don't think the French would have changed that much of the Nie.16 just because of an engine. Look at the seat support - heck, look at the seat itself. Look at the "blip switch" assembly (and the "angled" plate it sits on). Look at the shape of the center struts. Look at the angle of the turtledeck just behind the pilot. Given the time, and how quick aircraft were put into production, I don't think all of that would have changed just to support a different engine. Time would have dictacted they make due with what was already in there.

I'm still convinced your first photo is not of a "naked" Nie.16.
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 07:13 PM UTC
Matt its not important what we think or wish. Its not important whether anyone is convinced of this or that. The images are for comparison. Even Mr. J.M. Bruce noted in his writings. ". . . There were differences of internal detail and doubtless suitable strengthening was made at the appropriate places, but the heavier wing loading made the Nie. 16 less pleasant to fly than its predecessor. Production Nie. 16 (types) began to enter service in the spring of 1916. . . " Whether the Nieuport 16 was a virtual copy internally of the Nieuport 11 is doubtful.

If you can prove beyond a doubt that it is not a type 16 I invite you to do so. With evidence not hypothesis. I am ready to learn something new.
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, April 27, 2007 - 02:43 PM UTC
Now back to the build. First things first . The instruction are formatted at 6 page multiple step exploded views. Eduard has gone away from labeling steps in the Weekend series. In printing the instructions Eduard’s scribes put an insert between page 2 & 3 of the instructions. It contains pages 4& 5. The sixth page is the back of the last page. Minor critique but younger modelers might get confused.

Page 1.) Notes the parts map, suggested paint key and basic multinational building symbols used in the rest of the instructions. Again there are no brass etched components provided in the kit.

Page 2.) The pilot’s left-side of the Fuselage (A1) begins with the air / fuel mix lever ( B 20.) This would be a good time to pre-drill all strut and rigging holes.

Instrumentation: A compass needs to be scratchbuilt with a dial face, starter magneto and a fuel pressure hand pump. You may want to try Tom’s Modelworks, French Interior detailing parts or Copper State Models, Instrument Set both in 1/48 scale. They have many fine and unusual details not seen any where else and come at a reasonable cost. The air intake pipes (A 12) and air & fuel mixing chamber and magneto assembly (B 17) is Eduard’s production kit attempt to give the modeler a shot at detailing this usually ignored area. This is where you are to install the lower half of the aileron control rods (B 27.) I prefer to substitute painted brass rod to form the whole assembly. One horizontal cross piece to install here and two vertical rods traveling up to the aileron cranks (B 24 X 2) to be installed on what should be page 3.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:32 PM UTC
In printing the instructions Eduard’s scribes put an insert between page 2 & 3 of the instructions. We call them pages 4 & 5 and deal with them later.

Page 3.) When the fuselage halves (A 1 & 2) are joined you could add a section of 0.50 plastic to represent an oil tank. . Note that cowling A 14 is the type seen on the Nieuport 11 type only. Next scratch build the fuel and oil filler caps that will be adjacent to the “Top Dead Center” of the fuselage joints on the cowling (A 4 or 18 )and the upper section of the forward fuselage. Erase all seams in the fuselage union joints / seams.

Now here is the fun part. This is a real 80hp LeRhone.


Eduard suggests you to take the 80hp LeRhône ( A 15 & B 16) that they provide you in the kit (normally for the Nieuport 11.) Then they want you to turn the whole assembly back to front. Since this places the pushrods and air induction pipes at what is now the rear face of the cylinders it almost looks like a 110hp LeRhône. Except!!! The induction pipes are now on the wrong side of the cylinders for a 110hp. Now there are two methods for reasonably modifying this kit item from an 80hp to a 110hp.

This is a real 110hp LeRhone.


Reverse the cylinders and the crankcase ( A 15). Cut the induction pipes from the faceplate and scratchbuild them from brass rod. Now modify the face plate ( B 16) to sit flush on what is now the front of the engine. This method is the least labor intensive choice.

Note !!! You are going to have to modify the kit prop shaft (B 29. )

You will find it important to drill a small hole adding a section fine wire to the rudder (A 16) and its joint surface at the stern post of the fuselage assembly. You may want to add fine wire to the spark plugs on the engine cylinders (A 15) traveling back to the prop shaft assembly ( B 29). While this part is very simplified that is what it is supposed to represent. The exhaust cheek flanges are molded in place and could do with some opening and thinning at their bottom slots. Also note that the push rods are not included in this kit. There will also be a slight repositioning needed before glueing the base and the rod ends in place. Open the rigging and strut locator holes in the horizontal tail plane (A 5.) Check your references.

Next the front cabane struts ( B 31 X 2 .) The top wing ( A 4 ) should have a center line division running chordwise dividing the wing in half. Scribe a line to represent this, around the wing chord (upper and lower surfaces.)

The Nieuport 11 topwing (seen here) is the same construction as the Nieu.16

The ailerons were hung using piano type hinges, no straps will be need to be added, check your references. Attach the top wing ( A 4 ) and set to dry in a “Lego” Block jig. When thoroughly dry begin the rigging process. Fortunately the Nieuport fighters are a good first kit for attempts at rigging a WWI aircraft. Remember always to drill the smallest hole to anchor your rigging material. The more lines to anchor enlarge the hole. Wait until the anchored lines have dried thoroughly. Pass the other ends through their next hole and hold them tight by clipping a spring type clothes pin to the lines end. Touch the smallest drop of Superglue (Cyanoacrylate) to the area and again wait til dry. Only a sharp razor knife should be applied to the loose ends of the strands. See page 4 concerning the Le Prieur rockets ( B 4 X 8 ) and their attachments.

These Photo images are from the WWI Modelers Page photo archive.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 01:21 PM UTC
Here from LeBourget Airfield in Paris is their Nieuport 11 (suspended from the ceiling. This is a 80hp LeRhone. Note the air indcurion pipes were often made of copper or aluminum types.


Here is the same engine type on the Rhinebeck Nieu.11


These Photo images are from the WWI Modelers Page photo archive.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 01:23 PM UTC
Note the air induction pipes on the 80hp are in the front along with the pushrods. On the 110hp they are in the back. Here is a 110 - 120hp.



This Photo image is from the WWI Modelers Page photo archive.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 02:40 PM UTC
The Eduard standing French pilot figure ( A 10, 11 & 17) is very easy to assemble . They admonish “For exact uniform painting see your references.” Sound familar ...? Check your references. One never knows just how they will influence those around them.

The "kepi" or cap is usually black or horizon blue with a red top. Gold / yellow braid accents line to top and crest. Leather coat and shoes with tan or khaki cloth putee wraps from ankle to knee. The pants were usually horizon blue, red or black. For a bit of a change you can always lop off the kit head for another.
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, May 04, 2007 - 01:28 PM UTC
Greetings all;

Since the structure has been an issue of concern , and I like researching such minutae. Here is a bit of fun on the Nieuport single seat fuselage structures. From the grand fellow Ray Rimell. I decided several days ago to pull up Vol. 1 of the titles below ( from my files.)

Nieuport Fighters (Two volumes).
Vol.1. Nieuports 11, 16, 17, 21 and 23. 52 pages (10 in colour) with over 15 colour close-ups and over 20 sparkling profiles of Inter-national Nieuports. 6 pages of drawings, 85 archive photos plus 9 close-ups. £13.95

Vol.2. Nieuports 17bis, 24, 25 and 27. 48 pages (6 in colour) with 12 colour profiles, over 7 pages of drawings, 90 archive photos and 10 close-ups. The ideal partner to Volume 1! £13.95


Specifically we see some interesting images on pages 39 & 40 of Vol. 1 of a Nieuport 17 stripped down. It is very similar to the Nieuport 11 image I posted previously but decidedly dis-similar to the first image of what I identified as a Nieuport 16. Curiouser and curiouser. I have an idea where this variation is coming from but I'll have to do some more digging. Just thinking out loud here. There were copies of the Nieuport 11, 16 and 17 done by German manufacturers...

For now back to the build.

Since the cockpit is only part of the build lets move on and keep it out of the box for my build here. Out of the box...drat! Well there are the Eduard prepainted lap and shoulder belts that I was sent last year.
TreadHead
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Posted: Friday, May 04, 2007 - 06:27 PM UTC
Howdy Stephen,

Watchin' over your shoulder during a build up is always informative, and entertaining.

These "Weekend" editions from Eduard are the bees knees. Especially for those of us who don't do OOB. They give you all of the main ingredients for a song {only $10.95 for example} and allow you to go wherever you want with the final build....very cool.
And, what makes it even cooler, is having your splendid step-by-steps to refer to. Your attention to the "minutae" is a boon to all fellow modelers.

I will be following this one. The only coin I can tose in the fountain is; that you will do a step-by-step {with detailed photos } of precisely how you go about "modifying" the 80hp to the true and accurate 110hp LeRhône.
That is of course, if you intended on doing this.

Tread.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 04:32 AM UTC
Greetings Treadhead!

As always you seem t read my mind. And we will start here.

Here is the stock kit 80hp engine without push rods.


More to follow.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 04:36 AM UTC
Noting the 80hp above if you flip this as Eduard suggests, all of your crankcase details go behind the engine. Also as mentioned your air induction pipes will appear on the wrong side of your cylinders.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, May 05, 2007 - 05:02 AM UTC
Here is an in progress shot of another modeler's Nieuport 16 and the DML kit engine he used. His name is Jean-Pascal Maire.


Here is the kit recommended install by modeler Marc Flake


Note the differences and the lack of crankcase details and the copper air induction pipes in the second are reversed in the second