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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Lozenge Camouflage 101
CaptainA
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 01:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"



I thought the AEG G.IV used the hex lozenge. Could I actually use microsculpt lozenge on my G.IV?

JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 08:09 AM UTC
Greetings all;

For the sake of being as informative as possible on the subject Dan San Abbott (historian extrodinaire ) has weighed in with some general manufacture applications.

". . .1. Without doing a full study, the four color fabric was used mostly by the Fokker Flugzeufwerke. LFG Roland used the four color fabric on the Roland D.VIa, as did Hannover on the Han.CL.III(a) specifically.
2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers. It was used by the Pfalz Flugzeug Werke on the Pfalz D.IIIa late series production.
3. The Fokker built Fok.D.VII used the five color printed fabric, medium dark pattern, as did Pfalz.D.VIII and D.XII. Both firms used printed fabric for rib tapes. Albatros used the five color fabric with salmon pink rib tapes on the Alb.D.V, D.Va and the Fok.D.VII (Alb). OAW used this medium dark pattern with blue tapes on the Alb.D.III(OAW), Alb.D.Va(OAW) and the Fok.D.VII(OAW).
4. The Fok.E.V used mostly four color fabric and no tapes on the fuselage, tailplane, fin and wheel covers. Some machines, mostly late serial numbers used five color fabric.
5. Off hand, I am not sure the Naval three color printed fabric was used on the Alb.W.4. It did not come out until 1918, if used it would be on 1918 production.
I hope this helps.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 05:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen...you...are...a...dreadful...tease! Of course you do know that? If its 1/32 scale loz for pity sake tell me before before I spray the Albi DIII OAW wings in camo please and I will slip her back onto the pending pile and work on another project.
Keith



Now I can't say it is and I can't say it aint. But if I were you I would not get to set on spraying a camouflage scheme. Hint: what is this thread about. . .
Kornbeef
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Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 09:24 AM UTC
Stephen...you...are...a...dreadful...tease! Of course you do know that?

If its 1/32 scale loz for pity sake tell me before before I spray the Albi DIII OAW wings in camo please and I will slip her back onto the pending pile and work on another project.


Keith
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 08:59 AM UTC
HHHhhhmmmm I smell a change in the wind says I. Something is brewing just beyond the horizon. . . could it be? Might it be. . .? Now whats he upto. . .? Something on a grander scale?
CaptainA
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Posted: Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 09:06 AM UTC
The walls of my bedroom are an azure/sky blue color. If I set one of these lozenge colored airplanes up against it, the aircraft really does lose details and actually does blend in a bit. So, what Stephen said is correct.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 03:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm in the initial stages of my first ever bi-plane build, the 1/32nd LVG (Wingnut Wings kit). So I've many questions about bi-planes and/or WWI. So I'll start with just one for now:

1. What's the reason/rationale for this German 'Lozenge' design on many of their planes? Camouflage? Looked pretty? Did it play tricks on allied pilots eyes? What? Glenn



The short answer is it was done to render the aircraft details indestinguishable. At a distance you could not readily see whether the machine was coming at you or going away. Earth tones for the upper surfaces and sky tones for the lower surfaces. With shadows being on the underside these were rendered dark at an oblique angle. The attempt was to delay the enemy from engaging giving the German pilot a chance to survive.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'll be quiet now!.........



You get quiet on us and we'll send the cops around for a health & welfare check.
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:22 PM UTC
Cool , glad it work out for you Bob .
old-dragon
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 03:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You are looking in the wrong place Bob . when you go to the site on the main page on the left hand side click on forums . Now don't click on anything else just scroll down the page now and the two articles are there in the reading room . Middle of the page about half way down .


Ooops...gotcha...printed it all out...mentions a D-VII in naval lozenge! Thank you!!!!!!! I'm going to map out decal sections........I'll be quiet now!.........
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:52 PM UTC
You are looking in the wrong place Bob . when you go to the site on the main page on the left hand side click on forums . Now don't click on anything else just scroll down the page now and the two articles are there in the reading room . Middle of the page about half way down .
old-dragon
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 12:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Bob . Go over to this site ...........www.theaerodrome.com and click on forums scroll done to the reading room and you will find part 1 and 2 on the W.29 and German naval camouflge
Should be able to find you answers over there on the subject . I haven't seen any info here on the subject .



Nope, already checked it...All I found was "WNW" was supposed to come out with a large scale one...who's "WNW"?{wingnuts?}..I'll keep searching!
thegirl
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:28 AM UTC
Hi Bob . Go over to this site ...........www.theaerodrome.com and click on forums scroll done to the reading room and you will find part 1 and 2 on the W.29 and German naval camouflge
Should be able to find you answers over there on the subject . I haven't seen any info here on the subject .

old-dragon
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 04:05 AM UTC
I have a question...All this great reading on "land based" lozenge is great, but, will we of the sea going type ever see a "Naval lozenge" section to this wonderful thread? I ask because my Hansa Brandenburg W29 is ready for lozenge and I honestly haven't a clue to whether the laws of land based lozenge applies to the naval type as well? {cordwise application or span..or both/does naval type lozenge use rib tape/is there an Undernieth type of naval lozenge?} .........Could you enlighten us{me!}.
Not to jump the gun or be a pain, but this inquiring mind wishes to know.......
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 07:26 PM UTC
No where else but Aeroscale!
CaptainA
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 11:32 AM UTC
I just placed my order
Microsculpt
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:19 AM UTC
Carl and Stephen:

Thank you both!

The payment problem has been fixed. Please give it another try!

Respectfully,

Tom
CaptainA
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 04:20 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen. Paypal wouldn't work either.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 08:11 PM UTC
He was talking to me yesterday about a future project. I have a response that I am sending and will include your concern.
CaptainA
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Posted: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 09:24 AM UTC
I have been trying to order from Microsculpt for a week, and I keep getting a message that the payment processor is down.
Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 10:03 AM UTC
Hi Stephen

I'd be surprised if German WW1 tolerances were stricter than WW2, but your point about Peter and Alan's respective specialities is telling.

All the best

Rowan
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Stephen

Sorry, I hadn't seen the Microsculpt underside scan - the difference stands out a mile! Presumably the French exhibit is way off...



But my main point about the value of this thread still holds true - it's amazing how the depth of research has increased over just the life of the thread; witness the striking difference between the early pics and the latest:. . .

I'm still intrigued by Peter Grosz's comment that there were considerable colour variations in the lozenge fabrics. That's certainly true of WW2 RLM paints produced by different manufacturers, which even used entirely different ingredients to produce paints that fell broadly within the accepted range. I'd guess that there was similar latitude allowed in the dyes coming from various sources in WW1?

All the best

Rowan



Absolutely true Rowan. Your observation are correct.

The French exhibit is 5 colour


5 colour upper


5 colour lower

But consider that the single textile mill that was contracted to do the 5 colour and the other that was contracted to do the 4 colour. The variations were due much like the decal companies to using what was available on the market at the time. BUT this was still regulated by government oversight. vartiations might be acceptable but with the examples we have they were minimal. The dyes were proportionally mixed by batch.

While Peter was a great historian he scoffed openly about researching colours. Yet, Alan Toelle (who has studied WWI fabrics at the Mirco electron level) has a good deal more to say.
Kornbeef
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:05 AM UTC
looks at the images above......looks at my Techmod 1/32 lozenge and thinks......best go for a non loz colour scheme on my build then. to me the clours do seem way way out. Someone urge MS along to do some 1/32 quick pleaseeeeeeeeeee :-P

HO Hum

Added... As for the French example.. I suppose yellowing dope or laquer, years of sunlight, grime nicotine and such might alter it somewhat, plus the lighting isnt that good.

Merlin
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 09:04 AM UTC
Greetings Rowan;

It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.



Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours



The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.

AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.

Hi Stephen

Sorry, I hadn't seen the Microsculpt underside scan - the difference stands out a mile! Presumably the French exhibit is way off...



But my main point about the value of this thread still holds true - it's amazing how the depth of research has increased over just the life of the thread; witness the striking difference between the early pics and the latest:





I'm still intrigued by Peter Grosz's comment that there were considerable colour variations in the lozenge fabrics. That's certainly true of WW2 RLM paints produced by different manufacturers, which even used entirely different ingredients to produce paints that fell broadly within the accepted range. I'd guess that there was similar latitude allowed in the dyes coming from various sources in WW1?

All the best

Rowan
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 07:33 AM UTC
Greetings Rowan;

It might be your monitor but to clarify here is the Microsculpt upper surface colours.



Here are the Microsculpt lower surfaces colours



The Eduard stuff is way off. Microsculpt is dead on.

AS to my contributions. They would not be possible without you and Jim.