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Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Lozenge Camouflage 101
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 - 08:03 AM UTC
Hey Keith,

Since 101 is more explanitory and 201 deals with use and availability I added your comments there too. Click here.
Kornbeef
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Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 - 07:24 AM UTC
A new supplier on the block, their product looks excellent, I've ordered some and will give my twopenneths worth Aviattic
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/aviattic/
http://www.aviattic.co.uk/aviattic.co.uk/Welcome.html


Happy days.

Keith
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2013 - 11:37 AM UTC
I just had a request from a fellow modeler for this thread. I also repaired some broken links.


Quoted Text

"Hi again, Stephen!

Thanks for all the advice you gave me recently regarding painting and joining the Aeroscale site. I have a few questions. . . I have seen some other reviews by you on the site, but I'm not finding one that explains how to use the Express Masks. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction?



Here you go scroll mid way down


Quoted Text

Another thing I'm wondering ... is there a way to get only the reviews for the Early Aviation section of the forums? Every time I click on "Reviews", I get all the reviews from all the forums, and I don't see how to sort them to find the ones I'm wanting.



Here you go for that


Quoted Text

Finally, two of the kits I've purchased have frustrated me . . . the Airfix Hannover CL.III and the Revell Fokker D.VII. The reason they annoyed me is because both heavily use lozenge coloring on the wings, and the Hannover uses it on the body, but no lozenge decals came with the sets, and the instructions say the builder needs to paint the lozenge on by hand. What would you do in such a situation? . . .



It seems Printscale is the only company doing 1:72 at this moment. See WWIshop in the Valuable references link.


Quoted Text

Thanks again for everything. I hope you're doing well, and with any luck I may see you someday at the museum or at next month's model convention in Loveland!"

JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:46 PM UTC
This concludes this thread. See the application thread: German Lozenge Camouflage 201 for more.



here.
ninjrk
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Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 10:59 AM UTC
As a neophyte to painting WWI German planes, just wanted to say that this thread has been a Godsend!

Matt
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 04:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen should really wait until the production versions are released. The decals he refers to were only prototypes and are subject to change.



The decals we are speaking about have been premiered on another website (free forum) and though subject to change, they are items that fall with in this thread text. This also is a free forum and we members can discuss subjects that fall with in our interests.
Jamo_kiwi
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 03:44 PM UTC
Stephen should really wait until the production versions are released. The decals he refers to were only prototypes and are subject to change.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 09:55 AM UTC
Pheon has previewed a set of 1:32 lozenge camouflage water slide decals for the WNW Alb. D. When you come across it take this into consideration.

In this cookie cutter set :

1. The camouflage runs chord wise on the top wing and spanwise on the lower? This is not the standard factory application.

2. There are pink and blue tapes on the opposing surfaces. To my knowlege we do not have have any real evidence, real or photo examples or fabric samples that follow these methods.

3. The colours seem to be a very fine attempt to at least get them right.

By the way I have no problems with cookie cutter sets. But they have limitations when it comes to multiple builds or competitions. The colours seem to be a very fine attempt to at least get them right. The set was previewed on another sight and I can't use their images.
Maynard
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 11:10 AM UTC
Thanks for the quick reply!
That was my guess after reading this thread, thanks for confirming it for me, i guess that will save me a little extra work!

btw, i think your plane builds are awesome. It gives me something to shoot for
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 06:47 AM UTC
Sure Maynard,

Usually the answer is that often model companies rely on restored or recovered originals ( and sometimes replicas) on which to base their molds. The answer in Eduard's case is that they made a mistake. Someone working on the decals for the kit figured ". . .well we must have tapes in these places too." Its part of their drive to have everything the moeler needs in one box.
Maynard
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 01:41 AM UTC
Jack Flash,
Thank you so much for this thread, it has been a great help.
I am currently building Eduards DVII and am attempting Ltn, Starks paint job. I understand that no rib tapes go on the tail end control surfaces, and you have stated that no tapes go on the aerlerons also, i just wondered if you could shed some light on why the kit instructions show them applied there?
Thanks again for a very informative thread!

regards, Maynard
CaptnTommy
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Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 01:17 PM UTC
I completely agree with you on the Black and white pictures JackFlash. I forgot about the orthographic "problem". I gracefully take my last statement back.

I remember several years back the same arguements about what red the Red Baron's Triplane was. Equally as fun. Personally I chose the lozenge I think looks right. I am currently trying to figure out how to paint the diminishing lozenge on the Hanover CLIII fuselage

BTW My PC 10 is always chocolate.
Enjoy
Captn Tommy
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 01:39 PM UTC
Jusr bringing this up for a refresher.


Quoted Text

Understanding that the monitors we use may give each and every viewer here a different series of colours to represent a standard colour. I was asked recently here about the tonal difference in the Eagle Strike vs the Eduard 4 colour. The Eagle Strike is shown infront of the Eduard. Please remember the Eduard had two colours assigned to the wrong lozenge sets. But still over all with some texturing the effect can be near to the Eagle Strike. Again note the Pentagonal ( 5 sided) lozenge near the bottom of the image in both sets. In the beginning of this thread I identified this as a "Key Lozenge" to give us a starting point.


JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, August 30, 2010 - 05:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is very interesting about the camoflage. I have two observations to make.

1. The French D.VII lozenge looks like the Eduard Lozenge. Perhaps one should consider the the actual lozenge (D.VII lozenge) is correct (for that aircraft) (this not knowing whether this is a replacement or original [though it looks original]).



Yes, it was recovered and no the lozenge "camouflage" not accurate to the original. Eduard used it in their study examples. Eduard did try to get the hues right. Here is a hue comparison. The images will give you an idea of what I mean.


Quoted Text

2. having been in the printing industry which includes the printed fabric industry, even with "stingent" gov oversight, the print run varies. if the dyes are not agitated you will find lighter colors and darker colors in the print run. Are dyes vegtable or synthetic? The set of the fabric would be different. The fade factor would be different. At the end of the war the dyes were bad. To many variables to argue which color is better.



The German govt. had quality control personnel working at the textile mills to insure with reasonably "stringent" oversight that products met contractural obligations. These colours were to be "fast" and there application with dope were sealed against the elements. While I agree there may have been some variations and even in two cases colours were replaced with more available stocks due to shortages. I disagree with your "Too many variables."


Quoted Text

At the rate we are going we are running out of even second generational experts. I usually use the Smithsonian Alb. DV restoration book for color reference. . .



While I am sure you meant no offense, But I have original examples of the various printed fabric camouflage at my disposal and disagree with your statement concerning second generation experts. Also I have several copies of the Smithsonian book on the Albatros D.Va which displays 5 colour lozenge not 4 colour.


Quoted Text

If you want to judge accuracy make sure the values are in black and white,(take a black and white picture of the model and check it to the picture of the original) or from a contemporary painting.
Captn Tommy

BTW pinks fade . . .



Orthochromatic film has not been used in decades. If you intend on judging tones by "modern" black and white photo images of a model you will get lost very quickly. And the pinks were on the undersurfaces and usually protected from sunlight as well as being sealed like the upper surface colours.

To Everyone, If you want to build your kit as you will, there is nothing wrong with that choice. But this thread is probably not going to help you. We are attempting to get certain known aspects of this subject out to the modeler that want help with the applications. To most of us getting it done like the original is half the fun.

In a recent discussion with an Eduard team member I was told that if I didn't like their lozenge decals that I could use aftermarket sets. My response was, ". . .since Eduard has a marketing plan of giving the modeler everything they need to build a kit, why send them to an aftermarket dealer when getting it right is so easy?" Eduard buys in bulk and if something is wrong with a product it costs them more money to fix it. That cost is then passed on to you the modeler.
CaptnTommy
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Posted: Monday, August 30, 2010 - 08:12 AM UTC
This is very interesting about the camoflage. I have two observations to make.

1. The French D.VII lozenge looks like the Eduard Lozenge. Perhaps one should consider the the actual lozenge (D.VII lozenge) is correct (for that aircraft) (this not knowing whether this is a replacement or original [though it looks original]).

2. having been in the printing industry which includes the printed fabric industry, even with "stingent" gov oversight, the print run varies. if the dyes are not agitated you will find lighter colors and darker colors in the print run. Are dyes vegtable or synthetic? The set of the fabric would be different. The fade factor would be different. At the end of the war the dyes were bad. To many variables to argue which color is better.

At the rate we are going we are running out of even second generational experts. I usually use the Smithsonian Alb. DV restoration book for color reference. When I judge I do not judge for color, hue or tint. I judge for application, (was lozenge used? or not ) does it look right. Do I like it.

If you want to judge accuracy make sure the values are in black and white,(take a black and white picture of the model and check it to the picture of the original) or from a contemporary painting.
Captn Tommy

BTW pinks fade.
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 04:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

". . .Dougs Decal are the most accurate in colour out there and high reconmmended ."



To be fair here its not Doug's basic designs that have issues. You can take the patterns easily enough. But if your printer is a sixty dollar special you will spend twice that in ink cartriges tweaking the colours to get them right. And it will not be any better than Techmod's. If memory serves Doug will accept payment for printing them for you. But the caveat is that the inked based colours will crack and fracture on compound curves. Yo will have to shoot a clear coat over the decals to hold everything in place. The main drawback there is you have to use the decal within a two hour period or the top coat will become too inflexible.
thegirl
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 02:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Dear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.

In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camoflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.

Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker



Greetings Frank,
From the kit box, the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V should all have the 4 colour lozenge. Wingnut LVG C.IV should have the 5 colour. If you have read through this thread you will know what I think of some of these decals. Some manufacturers are shackled with Govt. restraints with only using in country dye manufacturers. Therefor approximations to the needed colours are prominant.

Doug Baumann has a self help lozenge thread on another site mentioned here.




Dougs Decal are the most accurate in colour out there and high reconmmended .
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 02:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.

In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camouflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.

Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker



Greetings Frank,
From the kit box, the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V should all have the 4 colour lozenge. Wingnut LVG C.IV should have the 5 colour. If you have read through this thread you will know what I think of some of these decals. Some manufacturers are shackled with modern govt. restraints with only using in country dye manufacturers. Therefor approximations to the needed colours are prominant.

Doug Baumann has a self help lozenge thread on another site mentioned here.

At this writing it is the only place where you -might- get a shot at getting 1:32 scale closer to the right colours. But - it is not the easiest method. The product will fracture and break on compound curves because it employs inks that are on the surface of the decal film.

The seasonal changes topic is simply not valid. There were contracturally limited colours that the govt established and they had to be fast. Fast meaning it won't run or fade too quickly. If memory serves there were two types of 5 colour upper "dark" and "very dark". These colours tended to remain the same through their the production runs. In one case with the four colour lower surface the stone grey did replace a light green colour. But in the study of this subject no other changes have ever been noted. It is hypothisized that the dye stocks simply became unavailable during the war blockade. The basics for chemicals used in the manufacture of colour dyes were often from other countries.

The good news is that Wingnut Wings has promise to release their line of 1:32 lozenge decal as a separate item. I expect that to follow with in the next year.

I have the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III kit and have built the Roden Fokker D.VI,

review here.

the kit build
Wingwalker
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Posted: Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 02:00 PM UTC
Dear Stephen,
I have polygon camouflage question and I'm hoping that that this is not breaking the rules.. I have recently purchased several kits in 1:32nd scale, all of which came with decals for their wings in "Lozenge" pattern . They are the Roden Siemens Schuckert D.III, the Roden Fokker D.VI, An AVIS E.V. Wingnut LVG C.IV, and lastly, an aftermarket pair of decal sheets from our good friends at Techmod.

In terms both of color hue and intensity, none of these sheets comes close to matching another. I have read that there were seasonal changes in the camoflage colors. Thes kits are labor intensive,and after I've strung rigging and little itty bitty turnbuckles I don't want to hear that my colors are inaccurate.How much latitude ought I to allow while still trying for a reasonably accurate representation of the subject.

Is this similar to the ongoing discussion about PC-10? .I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but in terms of accuracy, is there a clear winner?
I'd like to start a Wingnut Albatross which has wings in five color. Please advise,
Thank you,
Wingwalker
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, August 16, 2010 - 04:12 PM UTC
Now we have spent considerable time exploring the orientations, colour designations an covering methods of German 1917 -1918 multicolour printed aircraft fabric camouflage from the modeling point of view. Next "Lozenge Camouflage 201"

It is time we discuss the best method of laying down Lozenge decal strips and finishing them. This will be aimed as the first effort at the average modeler just learning to work with WWI aircraft models.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 05:54 PM UTC
Doug Baummann's patterns are very good. But you must print them yourself and the problem with ink jet printed decals is when they are dry they are very stiff and fracture easily without a unifying top coat. The other problem is wasting decal film to get the colours right from your printer. Unless you do these on a solid background coloured decal film (like white) your colours will be off. It can be a larger cost than anticipated.

My modeling time is at a premium and since Microsculpt has it all worked out, its a no brainer to me. Plus they go down so well.
wibbler
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Posted: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 - 12:44 PM UTC
sorry to butt in folks , but lozenge patterns for homrmade decals are availiable free - check out Doug Baumanns stuff - htp://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/models/7189-your-lozenge-here-free-all-4.html
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, June 18, 2010 - 08:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Stephen,

I have read your treatise on lozenge on kitmaker. I wonder if I could pick your brain a bit. . .

My problem is with the orientation of the pattern. If cut to be applied chordwise, as done on STROPP at NASM, the width of the bolt does not cover the width(front to back)of the wing. To help clarify, the small nearly rectangular yellow polygon should run lengthwise, parallel to the wing span. On Doug's patterns, the pattern runs 'North to South', instead of 'East to West'. Am I being clear?

Was it common to 'splice' the fabric lengthwise, to cover the wing? Wouldn't doing that interfere with the efficacy of the rib tapes?

Any light you could shed would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Modelguy




Speaking about chordwise applications, start with the lower wing roots work out to the tips. The long edges of the bolts are the factory edges. you lay them factory edge to factory edge. It is the modeler that determines the length of the individual section. You cut it to match the chord of the wing.

For the top wing work from the centerline and work out to the wing tips.



Quoted Text

". . .bolt does not cover the width(front to back)of the wing.. . ."



You are taliking about the chord width of the wing. United Factory edge to factory edge section. NOTE - seams do not join on the wing ribs.

As to the splicing no there was never a need to do so. But as a modeler you could splice patterns together if you run short of a decal. But this is only to lengthen the scrap piece to make it appears as a normal section like the others. This is why many lozenge decal manufacturers have their ends as unfinished ends. That is traveling around the individual lozenge shapes rather than a straight cut.
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 10:09 AM UTC
Eduard's newest version of the German lozenge. the same two colours on the upper surface sets are still switched. But the pattern location on the cookie cutter pattern is slightly different than previous issues.





Review here.

If Microsculpt decals are an A then Eduard's is a B . You have to give them credit. There is only enough kit four colour lozenge supplied for one aircraft. And it will benefit from a translucent coating of dark brown or black overall. This new set has a bit of a greenish cast to them. Though cookie cutter types they are moderately different in pattern locations that Eduard's previous efforts with their 1:48 Fokker D.VII kits.

For this kit those sent to MAG from Fokker - lozenge. The examples we have in the Lafayette Foundation show that the rib tapes were used in one piece on the whole wing rib profile. In general, from the factory Fokker Schwerin used lozenge or clear doped linen strips. Note also that there are cases where whole wing components were mixed at the unit level as replacements. That is the lower wings were one component and the top wing was another. Check which profile you intend on doing.
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 - 05:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

2. The five color printed fabric was used by A.E.G. G.IV, G.IVb and the G.V bombers.
Blue skies Doug,
Dan-San"



I thought the AEG G.IV used the hex lozenge. Could I actually use microsculpt lozenge on my G.IV?



Check your aircraft scheme The AEG used a lot of schemes and sometimes the lozenge was overpainted in a spray scheme. Remember the lozenge fabric was printed and about 50 - 67 count thread so it was very light.