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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Lozenge Camouflage 101
Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 16, 2007
KitMaker: 83 posts
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Posted: Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 02:49 AM UTC
Well Stephen,

The lozenge looks very good. And of course your build is very good also. Do you know an updated release date yet? I hope this month. Thanks for keeping everyone informed.

Can you give us your honest impression of these new lozenge decals as compared to your favorite Eagle Strike?

Jeff
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:55 PM UTC
I can honestly say that these decals are as good as the Eagle Strike sets. Colours are good and they handle well. I will post a few more images in the near future.
Dwaynewilly
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New York, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 05:56 AM UTC
Stephen,
Eagerly awaiting the unveiling of these decal sheets and their associated website. You left us with a bit of a teaser in the form of Americal/Gryphon being reissued by Hi-Tech of France. Can you elaborate any further on this story line?
Dwayne
JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 09:47 AM UTC
I would like to know more myself except I have been unable to get a response to my inquiry. We will all have to wait and see in this case.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, February 17, 2008 - 06:02 AM UTC
I have finished the next sample of the USA connection 4 colour lozenge application on another Fokker D.VII kit. I will shoot the image tomorrow and post here.

For now Rittersbach had a question;

Quoted Text


on 2008-02-18 00:24, Rittersbach wrote:
Stephen,. . .Are you saying that for the rib tapes, the same lozenge for the "top" surfaces goes all the way around the rib profile? so the top surface rib tape would actually be on the "bottom" surface lozenge also?"



Thats right one piece strip around the whole rib profile and often they used upper surface loz cut in strips. There were cases in the field and from the factory late in 1918 where lower surface loz was used for rib tapes. There were cases where 4 colour strips were used on 5 colour fabric and vice versa. Though they had a method for their madness they used whatever they had a supply of. Contracts had to be met on time.

Previous to that time upper surface lozenge was the stand by. Fokker Schwerin seemed to use this all the time. As mentioned OAW normally used lt blue and Albatros seems to have used pink. There were probably occassions where clear linen was cut into strips and used. Again this depended on supply stocks in hand.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 08:21 AM UTC
Here is a bit of fun with the "new" four colour. This is one of the kits for that EOW diorama. It represents a heavily used late model OAW type from Jasta 36.


JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 08:26 AM UTC
Here is a bit of fun with the "new" five colour. This also is one of the kits for that EOW diorama. It represents a heavily used late model Alb. type from Jasta 43. Strictly a hypothetical as far as the personal markings. We don't know what Raesch actually had on his machine at the EOW.

JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 08:27 AM UTC
Here is the side by side look at the applications. Both have a painted texturing of my own device. I do plan on doing a couple of models "clean" with just the lozenge and texturing. These will also be displayed after completion. The 5 colour still needed the "hand hold" and serial number decals. By the way to remove any excess hanging off the edges of the wing after the lozenge has dried. Use the face of your thumbnail and burnish the edges untill the lozenge decal falls away, There is another method but this will get you started.

Dwaynewilly
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New York, United States
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 365 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 01:11 PM UTC
Stephen,
Your builds are top-notch as usual and the decals look fantastic. Any word on their release? The weekend edition of the D VII is approaching so these 4 color decals will be quite useful. Like previous sentiments expressed in another thread, I have no desire to model Herr Gorings D VII.
Dwayne
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 08:46 PM UTC
I can only repeat what they will let me say.

A. At first it will be available from their website.
B. One sheet will have about six strips of lozenge decal.
C. The projected price is 9.00 USD a sheet.
D. As I have mentioned they are very easy to work with and in many ways are as good as the OOP Eagle Strike sets.
E. They did do the "dark" 5 colour upper instead of Eagle Strike's "Very Dark" 5 colour upper. (There were two types according to the experts).
F. They will be announced available as soon as the website shopping cart is up and running.
G. The owner is NOT ME. But he does frequent here.
H. He will be the one to announce when it all comes together.

PS. It was this thread that got him interested in doing the project.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 01:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Now to continue. The image presented in this post is an actual section of WWI German 5 colour lozenge from the underside of the lower wing of a Fokker D.VII from 1918. Several things to note;

A. The seam shows the neigbouring panels are not flipped 180 degrees to each other. Always check your references.

B. The lozenge rib tapes are cut from upper surface coloured bolts. Remember I noted they were one piece around the wing rib profiles.

C. The space of the rib tapes tells us that it infact came from a Fokker D.VII lower wing. So the historical text concening its provinance is correct.

D. Note the placement of the cross on the covering surface and its location in relationship to the ribs.



Here is another image concerning ribtape applications. This is Fokker D.VII OAW (probably) 8425/18. Note the rib tapes are upper surface fabric strips even on the lower surfaces.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - 08:42 AM UTC
I have just visited the American Connection's website. It is almost finished sheets are list as mentioned earlier for $9.50 USD.
Dwaynewilly
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New York, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 09:41 AM UTC
Stephen,
I have my bank card ready. I just picked up several sheets of Eagle Strike Fokker D VII decals and the Eduard Weekend kits should be here in early summer. I know this is covered in other threads and probably in this one as well but I have a quick question. Did all of the early D VII's have 5 color and when did the change over begin?
Thanks, Dwayne
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 10:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen,
I have my bank card ready. I just picked up several sheets of Eagle Strike Fokker D VII decals and the Eduard Weekend kits should be here in early summer. I know this is covered in other threads and probably in this one as well but I have a quick question. Did all of the early D VII's have 5 color and when did the change over begin?
Thanks, Dwayne



Greetings Dwayne;
The 5 colour existed first of course and the 4 colour began being used in the first production batch of the Fokker E.V, D.VII and D.VI. It takes close inspection of the profile concerned to identify which fabric was on what airframe.

Here is a quote from Dan San Abbott, ". . .PRINTED AIRCRAFT FABRICS.
Part 2. Four Color Printed fabrics,
* * The Fokker Flugzeugwerke G.m.b.H. did not use the new five color fabric, but continued to use their streaked camouflage scheme on aircraft that they were building during this period, the Fok.D.V, AEG. C.IV(Fok) and the Fok.DR.I. All the Fokker built aircraft had been covered with plain unbleach linen fabric. The first aircraft that used printed fabric was the Fok. D.VII, but only on the wings, the fuselage and tail surfaces were still covered with plain unbleached linen fabric and painted in the standard Fokker streaked camouflage scheme. The wings were not covered with the five color printed fabric, but with a new four color printed fabric. *This four color day printed fabric, in dark colors for the upper surfaces, and light colors for the bottom surfaces, were different from the five color pattern in geometric design, pattern repeat and the colors. *I do not believe this four color design originated at Idflieg, who totally controlled the five color fabric, but, I believe was the designed at the Fokker FlugzeugWerke. *
* * *Anthony Fokker, in my mind, was a business genious, he wanted to control his business in total and be the master of his ship! *He built a vertical business, and in doing so, did not become a victim of his suppliers.
I do not know for a fact, that Anthony Fokker was the owner of the four color fabric, it is a strong suspicion I have, that makes me believe this. The four color fabric first appeared on the wings of the Fokker D.VII in March 1918. *Albatros and OAW used the four color fabric on the Fok. D.VII aircraft they built under license. They also use the five color fabric on some of their Fok. D.VII production. They never used any of the four color fabric on other aircraft they built. *The four color fabric was used on the Fok. D.VI, Fok.E.V/D/VIII and on almost all Fokker built Fok. D.VII aircraft. There was some of the early Fok. D.VII covered with the five color fabric, however about two thirds of the late production starting around Fok. D.VII 7700/18 and onwards wer covered with five color fabric.
* * * The L.F.G.Roland D.VIa were covered with the four color fabric, however the later production
Rol. D.VIb were covered with five color fabric.. . . '
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 11:21 AM UTC
The Fokker D VI and the Fokker D.VI were different airframes. The first is the Fokker company's designation the next is the military. Again these were not the same aircraft.

The prototypes (V.9 & V.11) for the machines that would become the Fokker D.VI and D.VII were typetested in jan - Feb 1918.

A.The inline engine Fok. D.VII contracts were a primary concern and went into production almost immediately for frontline operations. The fuselage and wings being done at different production plants.

B. The rotary engined airframes small contract of some 60 Fokker D.VI types were not intended for frontline use but trainers and familiarization aircraft for the more powerful / higher horsepower rotary engines coming down the line. As such their production time line was different. The fuselage and wings being done at different production plants. It was a shortage of these higher horsepowered machines that forced Jasta 80b to be assigned at least two flights of the Fok. D.VI. Even Jasta 64w had a couple. Most other Jastas saw them issued in singles.


As such The streaked camouflage went on the fuselages of the Fokker D.VII early production upto about D.376/18. After that all examples were covered in either 4 or 5 colour lozenge. Other Fokker D.VII licensed manufacturers began their production and followed suit and from the start were in all lozenge.

On the D.VI recent studies have noted that some components of the Fokker D.VI though done in all lozenge had some components done in 4 colour (fuselage and horizontal tail unit) while the wings were in 5 colour. The fuselage and wings being one at different production plants. There were also airframes done in all one type supposedly.

There was an excellent study published in WWI Aero on the subject.
"Fokker D.VI" by R Houchin
World War 1 Aero #77, June 1980.
World War 1 Aero #85, January 1981.

Also note that the Fokker E.V (which gained some serials from canelled Fok. D.VI contracts) was also built at the same time as the Fok. D.VI. The parasol monoplanes were to be fitted with the higher horse powered rotary engines at some point BUT the metalurgical concerns that plagued them kept the powerplant installations at the lower rated Oberursels.

Several of the experimental Fokker E.V and later D.VIII type airframes had the higher horsepower rotaries but none of the small contract Fok. D.VI had them after the Jan. - Feb. 1918 fighter tests.

I may have given you more than you wanted but the study of these machines leads into the Caos theory pretty quickly. To understand why a certain machine had only one type of covering it often goes into when, where, what engine and who wanted it first for what purpose.
SuccorPhysh
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 24, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 03:19 PM UTC
This may be a more basic question. I am getting ready to tackle a Roden DVII with my first attempt at lozenge. I plan to use the kit decals because it is the first attempt. Do you normally prime the areas to which the lozenge will be applied or place it directly on the raw plastic?

JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,648 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 03:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This may be a more basic question. I am getting ready to tackle a Roden DVII with my first attempt at lozenge. I plan to use the kit decals because it is the first attempt. Do you normally prime the areas to which the lozenge will be applied or place it directly on the raw plastic?



Always, always lay down a base coat of paint for decals to adhere to. Semigloss is ok. I usually lay down several coats. One is a flat light grey. The next is Testors Dull cote flat. I like flats for opaque lozenge decals. Then some people go with a straight gloss. Using semi gloss covers all areas of concern. Decals with clear borders need this or a gloss. Base coats are especially important with resin.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 - 10:31 AM UTC
Here is a progress report from the American connection. It looks like streaking for the Dr.I types will be offered as well.

"Dear Stephen

How goes it? Attached is the layout for the instructions. If you would be so kind, could you have a look and let me know if Iíve made any major errors? And generally how it reads? Iíd REALLY appreciate your opinion. Oh, yes, there will be step-by-step images for the novice of the reverse. Just havenít gotten there yet.

Are the other lozenge builds progressing? If you provide a few shots in high resolution, when you finish, Iíll probably use them on the instructions instead. Only because they will be more pristine and better illustrate the basic product.

Fabric texture is at the printer now. And the interior lozenge is coming along nicely. As well as the streaking. Cheers!. . ."
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,648 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 04:37 AM UTC
More from the American connection:
"Stephen, I'm sending you a bit of fun by FedEx. A preproduction sample of the cloth texture (sorry, only one sample to spare). I have tried it. Seems to work well. Essential that it be applied over a good gloss surface to avoid silvering, since the sheet is transparent.

The texture is over-scale. But it does add a subtle fabric "feel" to the (lozenge)
surface.

Adds visual interest to the lower surface lozenge colors. Not as perceivable
on the upper surfaces. Will also be useful for plain fabric interiors. Here
though it may benefit from an additional wash of the interior color over top
to "blend" it a bit.

Might even look neat over PC10, etc. Let me know what you think. Cheers!"
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,648 posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 24, 2008 - 08:26 AM UTC
The American connection has sent me the example he mentions. It is the #48003, 1/48 woven fabric texture as a decal sheet. I will used this on a future Fokker D.VII build.
SuccorPhysh
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Texas, United States
Joined: June 24, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 03:30 AM UTC
Stephen, Another lozenge question. I am getting ready to cover my DVII's fuselage. Is the appropriate way to use a single strip of lozenge running the length of the fuselage or to run strips vertically, similar to the wings?
The learning curve on this first one has been high.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,648 posts
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Posted: Saturday, May 10, 2008 - 03:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen, Another lozenge question. I am getting ready to cover my DVII's fuselage. Is the appropriate way to use a single strip of lozenge running the length of the fuselage or to run strips vertically, similar to the wings? The learning curve on this first one has been high.



The answer is horizontally one strip down both sides one on the spine and two on the belly . There are 5 pieces all told. The belly has the center line reinforced edges where the lacings hold the envelope on the fuselage.
SuccorPhysh
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 06:15 AM UTC
Thanks. I have to learn somewhere. Glad I asked because I already started and did a bit wrong. Fortunately, not too far to fix.
CMOT70
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: August 23, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 04:51 AM UTC
Any samples or thoughts on this product yet?

http://www.orionminiatures.com/decals.php?sub_cat=4

As i want to do a Gotha in lozenge sometime in the future i'm hoping this is good stuff. Though i'm assuming that it represents the printed fabric used on night aircraft and not the painted lozenge that was initially used all over (and still used on Gotha fuselages even after the printed fabric became common for the wings).
Anyway it would have to be easier than using Rodens supplied decals, which look to garish to me anyway.

Andrew

JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 25, 2004
KitMaker: 11,648 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 06:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Any samples or thoughts on this product yet?

http://www.orionminiatures.com/decals.php?sub_cat=4

As i want to do a Gotha in lozenge sometime in the future i'm hoping this is good stuff. Though i'm assuming that it represents the printed fabric used on night aircraft and not the painted lozenge that was initially used all over (and still used on Gotha fuselages even after the printed fabric became common for the wings). Anyway it would have to be easier than using Rodens supplied decals, which look to garish to me anyway.

Andrew



Greetings Andrew I got this from Orion miniatures on 5/2/08. If they send them I will review them.

"Hello Stephen,
Iíd like to send you a copy of our most recent release of Staaken Lozenge. Where do I send them?

Thanks Derry"


http://www.orionminiatures.com