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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Lozenge Camouflage 101
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Monday, August 30, 2010 - 05:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is very interesting about the camoflage. I have two observations to make.

1. The French D.VII lozenge looks like the Eduard Lozenge. Perhaps one should consider the the actual lozenge (D.VII lozenge) is correct (for that aircraft) (this not knowing whether this is a replacement or original [though it looks original]).



Yes, it was recovered and no the lozenge "camouflage" not accurate to the original. Eduard used it in their study examples. Eduard did try to get the hues right. Here is a hue comparison. The images will give you an idea of what I mean.


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2. having been in the printing industry which includes the printed fabric industry, even with "stingent" gov oversight, the print run varies. if the dyes are not agitated you will find lighter colors and darker colors in the print run. Are dyes vegtable or synthetic? The set of the fabric would be different. The fade factor would be different. At the end of the war the dyes were bad. To many variables to argue which color is better.



The German govt. had quality control personnel working at the textile mills to insure with reasonably "stringent" oversight that products met contractural obligations. These colours were to be "fast" and there application with dope were sealed against the elements. While I agree there may have been some variations and even in two cases colours were replaced with more available stocks due to shortages. I disagree with your "Too many variables."


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At the rate we are going we are running out of even second generational experts. I usually use the Smithsonian Alb. DV restoration book for color reference. . .



While I am sure you meant no offense, But I have original examples of the various printed fabric camouflage at my disposal and disagree with your statement concerning second generation experts. Also I have several copies of the Smithsonian book on the Albatros D.Va which displays 5 colour lozenge not 4 colour.


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If you want to judge accuracy make sure the values are in black and white,(take a black and white picture of the model and check it to the picture of the original) or from a contemporary painting.
Captn Tommy

BTW pinks fade . . .



Orthochromatic film has not been used in decades. If you intend on judging tones by "modern" black and white photo images of a model you will get lost very quickly. And the pinks were on the undersurfaces and usually protected from sunlight as well as being sealed like the upper surface colours.

To Everyone, If you want to build your kit as you will, there is nothing wrong with that choice. But this thread is probably not going to help you. We are attempting to get certain known aspects of this subject out to the modeler that want help with the applications. To most of us getting it done like the original is half the fun.

In a recent discussion with an Eduard team member I was told that if I didn't like their lozenge decals that I could use aftermarket sets. My response was, ". . .since Eduard has a marketing plan of giving the modeler everything they need to build a kit, why send them to an aftermarket dealer when getting it right is so easy?" Eduard buys in bulk and if something is wrong with a product it costs them more money to fix it. That cost is then passed on to you the modeler.
JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 01:39 PM UTC
Jusr bringing this up for a refresher.


Quoted Text

Understanding that the monitors we use may give each and every viewer here a different series of colours to represent a standard colour. I was asked recently here about the tonal difference in the Eagle Strike vs the Eduard 4 colour. The Eagle Strike is shown infront of the Eduard. Please remember the Eduard had two colours assigned to the wrong lozenge sets. But still over all with some texturing the effect can be near to the Eagle Strike. Again note the Pentagonal ( 5 sided) lozenge near the bottom of the image in both sets. In the beginning of this thread I identified this as a "Key Lozenge" to give us a starting point.


CaptnTommy
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Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 01:17 PM UTC
I completely agree with you on the Black and white pictures JackFlash. I forgot about the orthographic "problem". I gracefully take my last statement back.

I remember several years back the same arguements about what red the Red Baron's Triplane was. Equally as fun. Personally I chose the lozenge I think looks right. I am currently trying to figure out how to paint the diminishing lozenge on the Hanover CLIII fuselage

BTW My PC 10 is always chocolate.
Enjoy
Captn Tommy
Maynard
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Florida, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 01:41 AM UTC
Jack Flash,
Thank you so much for this thread, it has been a great help.
I am currently building Eduards DVII and am attempting Ltn, Starks paint job. I understand that no rib tapes go on the tail end control surfaces, and you have stated that no tapes go on the aerlerons also, i just wondered if you could shed some light on why the kit instructions show them applied there?
Thanks again for a very informative thread!

regards, Maynard
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 06:47 AM UTC
Sure Maynard,

Usually the answer is that often model companies rely on restored or recovered originals ( and sometimes replicas) on which to base their molds. The answer in Eduard's case is that they made a mistake. Someone working on the decals for the kit figured ". . .well we must have tapes in these places too." Its part of their drive to have everything the moeler needs in one box.
Maynard
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Posted: Monday, October 04, 2010 - 11:10 AM UTC
Thanks for the quick reply!
That was my guess after reading this thread, thanks for confirming it for me, i guess that will save me a little extra work!

btw, i think your plane builds are awesome. It gives me something to shoot for
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 09:55 AM UTC
Pheon has previewed a set of 1:32 lozenge camouflage water slide decals for the WNW Alb. D. When you come across it take this into consideration.

In this cookie cutter set :

1. The camouflage runs chord wise on the top wing and spanwise on the lower? This is not the standard factory application.

2. There are pink and blue tapes on the opposing surfaces. To my knowlege we do not have have any real evidence, real or photo examples or fabric samples that follow these methods.

3. The colours seem to be a very fine attempt to at least get them right.

By the way I have no problems with cookie cutter sets. But they have limitations when it comes to multiple builds or competitions. The colours seem to be a very fine attempt to at least get them right. The set was previewed on another sight and I can't use their images.
Jamo_kiwi
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Wellington, New Zealand
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 03:44 PM UTC
Stephen should really wait until the production versions are released. The decals he refers to were only prototypes and are subject to change.
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, November 20, 2010 - 04:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Stephen should really wait until the production versions are released. The decals he refers to were only prototypes and are subject to change.



The decals we are speaking about have been premiered on another website (free forum) and though subject to change, they are items that fall with in this thread text. This also is a free forum and we members can discuss subjects that fall with in our interests.
ninjrk
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Posted: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 - 10:59 AM UTC
As a neophyte to painting WWI German planes, just wanted to say that this thread has been a Godsend!

Matt
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 03:46 PM UTC
This concludes this thread. See the application thread: German Lozenge Camouflage 201 for more.



here.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, July 13, 2013 - 11:37 AM UTC
I just had a request from a fellow modeler for this thread. I also repaired some broken links.


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"Hi again, Stephen!

Thanks for all the advice you gave me recently regarding painting and joining the Aeroscale site. I have a few questions. . . I have seen some other reviews by you on the site, but I'm not finding one that explains how to use the Express Masks. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction?



Here you go scroll mid way down


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Another thing I'm wondering ... is there a way to get only the reviews for the Early Aviation section of the forums? Every time I click on "Reviews", I get all the reviews from all the forums, and I don't see how to sort them to find the ones I'm wanting.



Here you go for that


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Finally, two of the kits I've purchased have frustrated me . . . the Airfix Hannover CL.III and the Revell Fokker D.VII. The reason they annoyed me is because both heavily use lozenge coloring on the wings, and the Hannover uses it on the body, but no lozenge decals came with the sets, and the instructions say the builder needs to paint the lozenge on by hand. What would you do in such a situation? . . .



It seems Printscale is the only company doing 1:72 at this moment. See WWIshop in the Valuable references link.


Quoted Text

Thanks again for everything. I hope you're doing well, and with any luck I may see you someday at the museum or at next month's model convention in Loveland!"

Kornbeef
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 - 07:24 AM UTC
A new supplier on the block, their product looks excellent, I've ordered some and will give my twopenneths worth Aviattic
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/aviattic/
http://www.aviattic.co.uk/aviattic.co.uk/Welcome.html


Happy days.

Keith
JackFlash
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Posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 - 08:03 AM UTC
Hey Keith,

Since 101 is more explanitory and 201 deals with use and availability I added your comments there too. Click here.