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Early Aviation
Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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Texturing lozenge decals 101
Lucky13
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Scotland, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 01:16 PM UTC
DAMN!!! :-)
Top notch Brad!
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 07:26 AM UTC
Just bringing this up for member "Succorphysch"
goldstandard
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California, United States
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Posted: Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 11:39 AM UTC
Thanks for bringing this up for all of us to see. Brad's painting tips are particularly interesting. I might just have to try them out on my SPAD, as right now some of the colors, like the brown, just seem a bit too dark to me.
Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 05:36 AM UTC
I am going to preface this comment with "Please try to see the humor in the following comment, as sometimes I feel this way, but I never take myself that seriously."

With all the analility (is that a word?) about accuracy and colors of german lozenge fabric and texturing, I am surprised someone hasnt had actual fabric created to scale and sewn or glued on their model in the same manner as in 1917.

Ok back to reality...

I understand accuracy and building a model that represents the actual aircraft, but sometimes I think it's way overdone, especially for a 1/48 scale model. For example, in 1/48 scale, the wood grain on an Albatros DV fuselage would hardly be seen, if at all. So, would the actual texture of the lozenge fabric be seen as such ? Weathering is one thing, and with the air, and wind, and sunlight, and rain, smoke, and castor oil, I can see the need to authenticate the "look" of lozenge that has seen war. But, to see the actual texture of the fabric in 1/48 scale is a little much.

OK Stephen, let me get my Dietz Flame suit on, and my helmet, and my gloves....ok I'm ready.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 06:12 AM UTC
No apologies or flameproof suits needed here Jeff. We all have opinions but when it comes down to facts we just want to be more right than just guessing. Take for instance the fine work of Mark Miller. We both think he is the cat's pajamas when it comes to virtual imaging. Mark layers in his artwork and for imagery it is quite convincing. That is what most modelers are looking for. that edge that sets their work apart. Whether its on a shelf in your basement or at the IPMS Nationals.

Solid colour decals are fine but have a very sterile look without some shading. The view that a model is just a model is a good reality check. We all need to take ourselves less seriously. Is it important for a throttle quadrant to be on the left side in a cockpit? Not in the grand scheme of things. But to build a satisfying kit we want to try to get it to look its best.

Not by weathering but by making fabric cover areas look like fabric. Metal to look like metal, Wood looking like wood. In many hobbies that is not that tough because they use those items. We have kits that are all plastic and it is important to many to get it to look like a scaled down version of the original.

It starts out with someone looking at your work and saying , " . . .Wow! How did you do that?" We just go from there.

Here is a bit of fun. At center Aeroscale member Dan San Abbott with a full scale replica Fok. D.VII.

Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 07:18 AM UTC
Stephen,

Mark Miller is amazing and I am always impressed with his work, not to mention I learn a great deal.

Not to put you on the spot, but how close are the lozenge colors in his renderings to being accurate? They look great to me.


Jeff

JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 08:50 AM UTC
Hey Jeff,

If I remember correctly Mark started with Dan San Abbott's information. The end result was what we see. I thinks he has gotten it pretty close.
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 02:03 PM UTC
Here are some recent studies where Dan San Abbott and Mark Miller's influence is strong. The pink rib tapes denote Albatros - Johannistahl built wings.

First 4 colour lower.


Next 4 colour upper.
Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Friday, August 24, 2007 - 03:17 PM UTC
Stephen,

Here's a stupid novice question for you sir. Those 4 color representations above, is the 5 color lozenge, the same 4 colors as the 4 color with one additional color? Or are all the colors on the 5 color different from the 4 color?

I swear I didnt word that to be funny, or confusing, but it came out like an Abbott and Costello skit.
JackFlash
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Posted: Friday, August 24, 2007 - 03:20 PM UTC
The 5 colour lozenge includes different colours than the 4 colour. Some are similar but definately different.
Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 07:37 AM UTC
Stephen, can you post some pics of original 5 color logenge like you did the 4 color?

JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 08:56 AM UTC
I don't think Mark has put out and comparitive studies for the 5 colour but here are the colours as posted in the Lozenge 101 thread.

Item 1. Five color day upper pattern, very dark.
letter color Methuen Code.
A. Dark blue 20F5
B. Dark Purple 16E5
C. Blackish blue 20G6
D. Dull green 30E5
E. Leather Brown 6E6

Item 2. Five color day upper pattern, dark.
A. Oriental blue 22D5
B. Greyish magenta 15D4
C. Greyish blue 23F7
D. Dull green 25D3
E. Dark blonde 5D4

Item 3. Five color day lower pattern.
A. Oriental blue 22D5
B. Greyish magenta 15D4
C. Dull green 25D3
D. Greyish ruby 15D5
E. Ochre 5C6

Here is the panel of lower 5 colour in my custody.


The 5 colur upper patter is under glass and does not reproduce well here.
Rittersbach
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Texas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 09:39 AM UTC
Thanks Stephen.

The glare is quite bad, but it is interesting in that the light brown, or almost yellow color is quite a bit more pronounced than I thought it would be from other decals I have seen. Americals are not close to this.

Ok, another question, this original was off of a Fokker DVII, I presume?
If so, was the same 5 colors used on the wing surfaces of Albatros?

Jeff
JackFlash
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Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 09:46 AM UTC
Yes it was the same 5 colur used on the Albatros fighters. See Lozenge 101 link.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 02:38 PM UTC
Greetings all;

Just bringing this up after repairing a couple of broken links.
JackFlash
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 08:55 PM UTC


Here is the 4 colour with a bit of texturing.


Below, I had a faux paux to fix. So two patches were laid down before the rib tapes.
thegirl
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 02:37 AM UTC
Stephen , The textuering looks fantastic . The difference it the "feeling " can really be seen on the lower left wing where no texturing has been added in the small patch . I like the lozenge for the rib tapes .
Awesome build as well , what markings are you going for ?
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 09:40 AM UTC
Greetings Ms. Terri. Thank you for the kind words. This 4 colour and the next build in 5 colour will be factory ex-works or "clean". This is to show off the new decals and their over-all appearance. I will shoot images without BLV markings (nationals, weights & serials). Then I will shoot them with these. After that there will be a few others to add. Maybe a Pfalz D. and or Alb D.
thegirl
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Posted: Thursday, September 18, 2008 - 05:27 AM UTC
A Pfalz D.III a would be most wonderful , My favorite aircraft next to the SSW D.III which would also be great to see this effect on . Looking forward on seeing the 5 colour lozenge .
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 06:37 AM UTC
Here are more views of the texturing on the 4 colour lozenge.


JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 06:48 AM UTC
Here are some views of the 5 colour with texture.


JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 07:08 AM UTC
Concerning the models it is essentually a black wash that is dragged across the wing surface from fore to aft on the wings and horizontal tail surfaces. but on the fuselage applied vertically on the sides. Accross the top rear deck and the undersurface belly the were is applied to the surface to unite the texture directions of the sides.

To be clear these are fabric surfaces that are not painted but have had their camouflage patterns printed on at the factory. The whole point of texuring is to represent the shadows that are inherited in the fabric on the finished aircraft.
JackFlash
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Posted: Sunday, September 13, 2009 - 05:56 PM UTC
In a recent build by our forum friend Wojtek Fajga builds a Karaya 1:48 Albatros D.XI. He is using the Microsculpt Texturing and Lozenge.









JackFlash
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Posted: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 05:23 PM UTC
Someone asked me about texturing so am bringing up this thread.
OEFFAG_153
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Västra Götaland, Sweden
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Posted: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 - 07:37 PM UTC
Greetings Stephen

Most interesting read, and very nice examples of Lozenge texturing. My DVa Wings are waiting for some of this treatment at the moment. Not decided if I will go for the brush or overspray (Brad's) approach yet – will do some tests later on.

Hopefully, they are also curing enough for me to be able to do some light masking (post-it notes) and airbrushing of the national markings...

Thank You for bringing this thread up!

Best Regards

Mikael