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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
What lately left my assembly line
RolyPoly
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Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 07:50 PM UTC
I'm not sure there's much point going to the trouble of building a kitand setting it in a realistic diorama without weathering it... after all, a pristine aircraft in a less than pristine setting just looks.... wrong...
stooge
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Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 08:35 PM UTC
Like the models presented here, very nicely done. I'll have to think more about the comment above. I sort of ageee and sort of do not care. Maybe a beer is needed to consider the matter.

Any chance of letting some of the air out of the tires?
Heatnzl
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Posted: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - 09:55 PM UTC
Hi Torsten.

I like your style of modelling and wish I could replicate it! All my models are 'weathered' and 'battle-damaged' no matter how careful I am...

Cheers

Karl.
BlackWidow
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 07:01 AM UTC
Time to breath some life into this thread, so thanks for bumping up, guys!
Roland, I do understand your point but let me say it this way: Everyone of us has his own philosophy of building models and presenting them - this is my way. You sure have a different one. I'm not really into weathering aircrafts. We often see that it's done wrong or too much and so the work of weeks or even months is spoiled within a minute. I prefer to do nothing ....

We all remember Russell Anderson, do we? If you go back a few pages, you'll also find some of his posts in this thread. Of course I took part in the Memorial Campaign for him and built this North American B-25 J from Revell (ex Hasegawa) in 1/72 ....


.... the B-25 J was the last version of the Mitchell and with a total of over 4300 built in greatest numbers. Most of them were used in the PTO but as bombing targets were running out there, the role of the B-25 changed and it became a ground attack aircraft. It got a redesigned solid nose with 8 machine guns. With the gun packs on both fuselage sides and the defensive weapons there were up to 18 machine guns, a really powerfull ship which was called "Strafer". In Europe these Strafers were only used in small numbers, mainly in the Mediterranean area ....


.... I have built a Mitchell of the 38. BG, 71. BS, based in Itazuke/Japan in late 1945 as part of the occupation forces ....



.... as you know, I don't build in 1/72, so for this campaign I've chosen a bigger kit in that scale for my clumsy fingers which are only used to quarter scale kits This kit is in fact very easy to build and no filler was needed. The fuselage/wings area is nicely to assemble without sanding. The main colours I used are from Revell. For the underside it's No. 43 Medium Grey and the upperside is painted with No. 65 Bronce Green. Actually it should be a mixture with 25 % Yellowish Olive No. 42, but I was too lazy to do that. It looks fine to me anyway .... For the canopy I have used Maskol from Agama. Unfortunally this build took me nearly 3 months .... .... so the Maskol was way too long on the canopy and I didn't get it off easily. So I'm not really happy with the way it looks now. So please don't look too close. Needless to say that the kit is build oob and not weathered ....


Russell, rest in peace my friend. Hope they have enough glue and paint for you in heaven.

I promise that the next kit will be build quicker than this one. It's already on the bench and of course it will be in 1/48 as usual.

Happy modelling!
Torsten
Joel_W
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 09:53 AM UTC
Torsten,
An exceptional Memorial build for Russell, which is up to your usual standards.

It's done in your usual museum style with no weathering. But have you ever considered using pin washes for the sake of greater definition of panel lines and separation of flying surfaces, rather then considering it just a weathering process?

Every one of your models looks to have their colors just about perfect. Since you mentioned that your choice is close but not quite correct, it does look a little off to me as well.

Army Air corp. O.D. it's a difficult color to get right. Post 1943 the official spec was ANA 613, which is Dark Olive Drab 42, but for most of WW11, the color was ANA 613 Olive Drab 41,

I'm confident in saying that no other color seems to have had more written about it, and more conflicting documentation then Olive Drab.

Here's a group of paint chips that all represent O.D. at various stages.

Contrary to popular opinion, Tamiya's OD is the darkest of the major paint companies, yet looks to be the closest as it would have been applied at the factory for aircraft.

Joel



Joel
BlackWidow
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 06:27 AM UTC
Joel, thanks for that paint chart. That will help quite a lot. I guess, discussions about the various tones of OD are about the same and endless as over here in Germany with the RLM colours. Especially when you look on 70 years old colour photos ....
I have read quite often that the range of OD was between a dark brown to a grass green. I have OD paints of several brands, so e.g. on my P-38 I have used Revell No. 46, which is my favourite OD tone and on my P-47 Razorback and the P-51 B I have used Vallejo 71043. But I have some others like from Gunze and Agama, which is far too dark in my eyes. But on this B-25 I have used a green tone, which is actually the same as on my Leopard 2 tanks .... If I look at the box art, it comes quite close. And on a P-40 I have used a greyish green some years ago. I like to have different shades of that colour in my collection.
Please remember, when I take pictures of my models, they are brandnew, just left the workbench maybe a week ago. If I leave them 6 months on the shelf, they look quite different. I also take them to expos were the dust falls especially over night so that I have to clean them again in the morning ....

Happy modelling
Torsten
Joel_W
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 07:21 AM UTC
Torsten,
I've seen hundreds of models with as many various shades of OD, it's just the nature of the "beast". To add to the confusion, my monitor while color calibrated, will interpret colors differently then what you see on yours, and in person. So it's really a subjective call. I guess what got me started with the paint chart is that you were going to add Yellow to the color, I would have thought that a brownish tone would have been closer to those chips. So I posted the chart for you as a guide for future projects.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your choice of color.

Looking forward to your next finished museum model.

Joel
JPTRR
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 12:26 PM UTC
Hi Torsten,

A wonderful strafer! Russell would be proud.

I think your factory fresh models are a breath of fresh air, on or off dioramas.

I'll never say I never try 'scale effect' and 'pre-shading' (Russell hated both) but I do not subscribe to those communities of modeling. With an undergraduate degree in art (drawing and painting) and graduate work in illustration and graphic art, I think 'scale effect' is an attempt to apply a 2-dimensional concept to 3-D models, really only appropriate for models in shadow boxes or 'forced perspective' on dioramas. Yet if that is what makes modeling enjoyable for our 'scale effect' and 'pre-shading' brethren, I think it is great!

I look forward to your next model!
Joel_W
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 12:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Torsten,

A wonderful strafer! Russell would be proud.

I think your factory fresh models are a breath of fresh air, on or off dioramas.

I'll never say I never try 'scale effect' and 'pre-shading' (Russell hated both) but I do not subscribe to those communities of modeling. With an undergraduate degree in art (drawing and painting) and graduate work in illustration and graphic art, I think 'scale effect' is an attempt to apply a 2-dimensional concept to 3-D models, really only appropriate for models in shadow boxes or 'forced perspective' on dioramas. Yet if that is what makes modeling enjoyable for our 'scale effect' and 'pre-shading' brethren, I think it is great!

I look forward to your next model!



Fred,
I kind of sit on the fence with "scale effect" if you're referring to lightening up the color a shade or two because we're looking at a smaller then life size model. Some times it looks good, and some times it just doesn't. Yet it always looks good when you add a little gray to black for scale effect. Now how's that for sitting on the fence

As for pre-shading, the majority of models I've viewed with pre-shading are generally overly done, and you end up with some sort of checkerboard effect. I prefer a pin wash of the base color with black, then the base color with some white that I air brush both in the center of panels, and in a random pattern to represent fading. I also go the other way and add some black to the base color, then randomly darken some panel lines and areas using pictures of the real aircraft for a general reference.

Joel
RolyPoly
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 08:05 PM UTC
I agree that attempts at 'weathering' model aircraft can be 'over done' - but, they can also be 'under done' so as to look completely wrong, almost manequin like.

I've tried several methods over the years, but have finally settled on pre-shading with an air-brush and pin-washing with dilutred oils afterwards. As long as the over spray on the prer-shade is agressive enough, it fades away to almost invisibility. The pin wash then merely enhances what is a very subtle shading effect.

This is usually enough without plastering pastel chalk and god knows what all over the place, but it adds a dimension to a piece without detracting from its form. Not doing anyting is just odd - as Tony Greenland said once, 'A matt model is a dead model', and the analogy can also be drawn here.
Joel_W
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 01:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I agree that attempts at 'weathering' model aircraft can be 'over done' - but, they can also be 'under done' so as to look completely wrong, almost manequin like.

I've tried several methods over the years, but have finally settled on pre-shading with an air-brush and pin-washing with dilutred oils afterwards. As long as the over spray on the prer-shade is agressive enough, it fades away to almost invisibility. The pin wash then merely enhances what is a very subtle shading effect.

This is usually enough without plastering pastel chalk and god knows what all over the place, but it adds a dimension to a piece without detracting from its form. Not doing anyting is just odd - as Tony Greenland said once, 'A matt model is a dead model', and the analogy can also be drawn here.



Roland,
If your method is to go over every panel line, then the effect usually comes out looking like a repeated checkerboard pattern more often then not. If one looks at some naval aircraft from WW11 on, the weathering and fading of operational aircraft is both random in pattern and concentration due to salt air spray, sunlight, and more confined from oils, fuels, grease. & solvents.

Yet every aircraft at a min of one time in its service life before repainting, looks spotless, then the process slowly begins. Where the modeler wishes to set his model in that cycle is up to him.

Joel
BlackWidow
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Posted: Monday, September 15, 2014 - 07:01 AM UTC
In July I had 3 fantastic weeks holiday in Finland. Of course I visited some of their military museums, like the tank museum in Parola, the artillery museum in Hämeenlinna and naturally the Keski Suomen Ilmailomuseo, the Finnish Air Force Museum, in Tikkakoski. I left a lot of money in the museum shop there, believe me ....
And so today I can show you my latest finished kit, the Curtiss Hawk 75 from Academy (ex Hobbycraft) in 1/48 ....


.... in the mid 1930's Curtiss decided to design and develop a new monoplane pursuit aircraft on a private venture. Known as the Curtiss Model 75 the company believed the USAAC would consider it as a replacement for the Boeing P-26. In May 1935 the aircraft was submitted for evaluation and a year later a competition took place between Curtiss and Seversky, which was won by the latter company. However 3 more prototypes were ordered and trials were so successful that a contract for 210 aircrafts, now known as the P-36, was awarded in July 1937. In the meantime Curtiss also looked for some export customers and found them mainly in France, the Netherlands and Thailand. When the USA became involved in WW 2, the P-36 was already considered obsolete. So most combat experience on the Hawk 75 was made by french, dutch and finnish pilots. Finland got their Hawks from Germany, who had captured many of these aircrafts in France, just like the Morane-Saulnier 406. The Curtiss Hawk 75 was powered by a 1200 hp P&W engine, had a maximum speed of 500 km/h at 3.000 meters and the armament consisted of 4 to 6 machine guns, depending on the version ....



.... I have built an aircraft of the 1./LeLv 32 of the Finnish Air Force, based at Lapeenranta in the southeast of Finland in September 1941. The pilot was often Lt. Kyösti Karhila. Just on the CUw-560 he scored 8 victories, on Curtiss aircraft 13 in total. In April 1943 he was commanded to LeLv 34 where he flew "Mersu" (Bf 109). Already on his first mission with the new aircraft he made 2 kills. Further successes followed and at the end of the war he had 32 aerial victories and 304 missions flown, which made him the 10th successful fighter pilot of the Suomen Ilmavoimat. Though he was decorated with many Freedom Medals, he surprisingly never became a "Knight of the Mannerheim Cross". But as you can see on the photo, he was also awarded with the German Iron Cross 2. Class. In November 1944 he left the air force but stayed with his passion, flying airliners for Finnair and other companies until he finally retired in 1985. As the last of the highly successful Finnish fighter pilots, Kyösti "Kössi" Karhila closed his eyes forever on the 16. September 2009, aged 88 years ....


.... now let's come to the kit. Well, what should I say? It's quite an old one and cannot compare with todays highly detailed kits, but it's still the only P-36 kit in 1/48. There is a lot of fitting, filling and sanding to do, especially on the underside, which makes building it not really enjoyable. The fitting of the canopy is a catastrophy and while I tried to adjust it to the airframe, the sliding part of it broke And of course I had no substitute. But looking at the photos now it doesn't look so serious as I felt when it happened. All in all if I look at the whole kit it's not that bad. And at least it's another flying Finn ....


.... the paints I have used are again all Revell Aquas, No. 49 Light Blue, No. 68 Dark Green, No. 302 Black and No. 310 Yellow. I think the cockpit should be painted in NMF instead of RLM 02 Grey-Green and the propeller tips were not yellow judging from an original b/w photo of the aircraft. The decals come from the Finnish company InScale 72 Production, who also produce in 1/48 as you can see, which are also bought at the museum shop at Tikkakoski. 6 Euros per set is a very good price which let me dig deep into their decal box .... I was very pleased with the manufacture of these decals and how they reacted in warm water and with my decal softener. Though unfortunaly the white disks of the Hakaristi are not opaque, but that's only visible on the underside with its different colours. I can live with that ....

.... here you can see my whole Ilmavoimat so far. There is quite a quality difference between the Hurri (Hasegawa) and the Hawk. Both will fly to an expo to Basel/Switzerland early in October ....

.... finally I thought it's time again for my little Eastern Front shelter diorama. Just looks a bit like somewhere in Finnish Karelia, which is a beautiful area by the way
So I say "Kiitos" for walking around this rare fighter and I hope you've enjoyed it.

Happy modelling!
Torsten
Joel_W
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Posted: Monday, September 15, 2014 - 07:50 AM UTC
Torsten,
A most unusual subject for sure. And as usual built to your museum quality standards of a perfect & spotless finish. Well done.

It's a shame that you don't have an extra decal for the underside, as it would help to eliminate the color bleed through, especially if it's going to be in a show/contest.

Joel

BlackWidow
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Posted: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 - 07:21 AM UTC
Indeed Joel, this is an unusual sight, especially for American eyes But as you know the Finnish fighter pilots in WW 2 were the most successful in Europe only bettered by the Jagdflieger of the Luftwaffe (Juutilainen 94 kills, Wind 75 kills ....). And they used every aircraft they could get, even if it was second-rate. I think the most famous Finnish fighter aircraft beside the Bf 109 was the Brewster Buffalo, or just called Brewster, which they used right to the end of the war.
On the decal sheet there are up to 4 options but only Hakaristi for one model. That's why I bought 2 identical decal sheets of the Bf 109 G-6, so I can build 2 "Mersu" in the future But maybe I try to airbrush white under the disks first next time.
Because of the swastika/Hakaristi I can only show my "Flyin' Finns" outside of Germany, as expos are usually open to all public here. But at our next club meeting on Saturday I will show my new Curtiss.
I never take part in model contests, I'm not a competition type. So all my models will just be seen in the show and for the fun of it.

Torsten
Joel_W
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 - 01:49 AM UTC
Torsten,
Being an American, I still find it hard to rationalize the banning of the Swastika when used in a historical concept. It did exist, still exits, and to ban it because it represents a historical time period that is still sensitive to some, makes little sense in today's day and age of historical enlightenment. Books have been written that mention it by name, are they banned as well, or must they remove those direct references before being printed?

My mother's family was from Southern Europe prior to WW11, some stayed the course, and a few perished in the concentration camps. Those generations are almost all gone now, and our generations see things in a different perspective, yet we will never forget.

Sorry for stepping up on my soapbox, but it's time that these policies be replaced with a more rational concept to historical accuracy.

Joel
Joel_W
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Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 - 02:09 AM UTC
Torsten,
Your comment on the B-239 Brewster Buffalo, which was the export model of the F2A-1 that was sold to Finland was indeed just referred to as the Brewster, no mention of the term Buffalo was ever officially used. And it was certainly a equal match to whatever the Russians were flying as it had an excellent kill ratio.

I do find it somewhat ironic that the Fins were so successful with it, while we termed it as obsolete at the very start of the war, and it was quickly replaced by the Grumman F4F Wildcat versions right after the Battle of Midway, which it originally beat out in a fighter competition for the Navy.

Joel

BlackWidow
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Posted: Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 08:16 AM UTC
Joel,
not easy to explain in english but I give it a try. We have this law since 1980 and to say it briefly it's forbidden to show any signs and symbols of the former NSDAP (which is also forbidden) and its organisations in public (also symbols which look alike, like the Finnish Hakaristi), which is fine for me. The main reason behind this is, to give the so called Neo-Nazis no chance to use these symbols, like the swastika or the SS runes, for their propaganda. But we have some exceptions which make this law in some cases a bit of a "grey zone", if you understand what I mean. These exceptios are mainly for art, museums, historical photos and political education. So you can see swastikas on a Bf 109 in a German museum with no problem or in movies like "Der Untergang" or "Stauffenberg". Also on historical photos you can see these symbols officially. What makes this law a bit of a problem for us modellers is, that we would classify our model kits as art, but the German justice doesn't. So whenever I show a german aircraft in an expo here, I have to cover the swastikas on the rudder. With Finnish aircrafts it would be more difficult to cover all 6 of them, so I leave these kits at home. The reason why I can show everything so clearly here is, that the Aeroscale server is British. In a German language forum like the "Flugzeugforum" I have to cover these signs. I hope, you understand the reasons a bit better now. I have learned to live with the law and have absolutely no problem with it.

Talking of Finns, I took these photos of the Brewster in Tikkakoski during my holidays.
1Lt Lauri Pekuri was shot down on the 25.06.1942 over Russian Karelia in BW-372. He managed to ditch the aircraft on a small lake, swam ashore and walked back to the Finnish lines (if it really was that easy ....). The Brewster was recovered from the lake in 1998 and restored in the USA. It's on temporary loan by the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola to the FiAF Museum Tikkakoski until summer 2016 but the director told me, that they try to keep it for longer.

Joel_W
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Posted: Thursday, September 18, 2014 - 08:52 AM UTC
Torsten,
Thank you for that in depth explanation. Like I said here in the States we have a more liberal philosophy, as well as certain fundamental freedoms guaranteed By the Constitution.
Joel
Partenavia
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Posted: Friday, September 19, 2014 - 07:33 PM UTC
Hi Torsten,

made well - and it looks very good
BlackWidow
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Posted: Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 07:24 AM UTC
Lutz, thanks for your compliment and nice to see you back here in my thread. You know me, as always I tried my best.

Happy modelling
Torsten
stooge
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Posted: Sunday, September 21, 2014 - 11:08 AM UTC
Really lovely pics of the Finnish Brewster there Torsten.

And interesting comments on the swastika situation, much appreciated.
JPTRR
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Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 12:39 PM UTC
Torsten,

Your Ilmavoimat Curtiss Hawk - excellent! I've built two over 20 years ago, it got me interested in the Ilmavoimat. Wish you were here back during my campaign: Fighters Under the Midnight Sun

Here's the gallery: http://photos.kitmaker.net/showgallery.php/cat/17863
JPTRR
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Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 01:03 PM UTC
Please note that the old Finnish Air Force national insignia, the blue swastika, dates back to 1918, when Swedish count Eric von Rosen donated the first aircraft for the Finnish Air Force. The blue swastika was the old Hindu lucky sign that the Rosen family used and had nothing to do with the later Nazi swastika. (source, http://www.sci.fi/~fta/FAFhist.htm The Finnish Air Force,
FAF, A HISTORICAL REVIEW, By Lt Gen (FAF ret) Heikki Nikunen)

IIRC, Lithuania used it in a red disc.

I have no support or appreciation for Nazis but I like to bring up to people that the swastika has a long pre-nazi heritage in the USA: it was on Arizona state highway signs until Hitler came to power; used by the Lafayette Escadrille; I have even seen a WWI USAS squadron of DH-4s using it as a unit marking. In fact one decorates the floor in the synagogue at Ein Gedi, built during the Roman occupation of Judea. I haven't seen photos but supposedly a swastika pattern still exists in the floor tiles at the Temple Beth El synagogue in Utica, NY.

I don't know if that soothes anyone's angst with the symbol, and I respect anyone who does not want to see it, just as I respect modelers who want it on an appropriate model. The Nazis tarnished an ancient good symbol. I won't display one for that reason - except on models - but I think it is a shame that the symbol has become one of horror.

Back to modeling.
berndm
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Posted: Friday, October 03, 2014 - 06:59 PM UTC
Impressive line of clean, well done kits and a great presentation as well, Torsten.
BlackWidow
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Posted: Monday, October 06, 2014 - 07:30 AM UTC
Returned from the expo in Switzerland yesterday evening and found now your comments. Thanks for them!

Bernd and Carl, glad you like my models and the presentation. Maybe you want to subscripe my thread so you always get my lastest models first hand? Next one is already on the bench!

Fred, yes, that would have been a really nice ribbon for my collection, but I joined Aeroscale 3 years after this campaign. The next ribbon I will get is the "Flying Kangaroo" for the new RAAF-Campaign. Though I haven't started my build yet ....
And thanks for your statement about the swastika. I know, you're right. You know, you're right. Our politicians know you're right. But that won't lead us any further because we have this law over here and will still have in 100 years (at least ....) because Germany has this evil past of 12 years and started a war which laid half of Europe to ashes. I have tried to explain the main reason behind this law and it's okay for me. We have learned to live with it, but this law is only valid here in Germany (also for foreigners!). Every scale model builder at an expo knows that here. I suggest, we stop the discussion about this matter now.

To end also the "Finland-Theme" for this time, recently I found an interesting film on Youtube which shows the brave fight of the Finnish Army during WW 2 with a special view on the Airwar over Finland. Maybe you like to watch. But take your time, the film lasts 63 minutes.

Happy modelling!
Torsten