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Discuss World War I and the early years of aviation thru 1934.
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WNW GB 2009 - 10 Albatros D.V - Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 11:47 PM UTC
Greetings everyone

Hope you've had a good summer/winter depending on where on the planet you dwell

Thoght I'd join this most excellent groupbuild. Hope I'll be able to finish by November 11th – its going to be a pretty busy autumn for me – sooo we'll see.

As you can see from the title I'll be doing the D.Va and possibly the D.V too (they'll be built sort of in tandem which seems to be the way I do these builds nowadays)

I't'll be a pretty straight build, with details added here and there – I am considering a different marking thogh... (not over the moon about any of the ones in the box apart from "STROPP")

Here's a clue to what I have in mind:



They are my daughters socks, though they might have belonged to a certain Saxon Jasta leader

At the moment I'm looking up references, while cleaning up bits and planning ahead.

Will post more highlights as I progress.

Thank You for looking – any and all comments are most welcome

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 12:15 AM UTC
Hi again

Right away I have a question for the learned panel of this forum – its regarding engine options and cover material of flight surfaces.

I am a little confused over the fact that an earlier D.V types, say Bruno Loerzer's D.V 2299/17 is profiled as having lozenge, while Paul Baumers later D.V 4409/17 is profiled as having Mauve/Green wings... (from the Osprey series of books)

The two planes belonged to two different batches, that were ordered in May (2299/17) and July (4409/17) of 1917. (accoring to Windsock Special on the Albatros fighter p 55)

The only way I can explain this is that the different order batches where built simultainosly, and the factories did not wait for one batch to be finished, but assiged the planes their individual numbers from the batches that were then in production?

Now my quiestion is really do we know (at least roughly) At what point (plane numbers) during the various batches of DV and DVa productions that Albatros started appying Lozenge to the flight surfaces?

Also when (plane numbers) during the batches did they start putting the 180 hp engine in from the factory?

WNW instructions claim that most D.V were indeed fitted with the 160 hp engine – but what was the story on the D.Va? And would the 200 hp have been put in from the factory at all?

Rather a longwinded question – Hoping this makes some sense to somebody that can follow my logic here at the forum... (not sure I can follow it myself)

Best Regards

Mikael
Kornbeef
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 01:24 AM UTC
I cant say for certain, I'm sure someone will why the seeming switch back and forth between loz and camo, guessig it was supply and demand, that plus changes/repairs made in the field.

Markingwise, yes I too was somewhat underwhelmed at the choices...and lack of lozenge in the WNW box, but fear not Rowan Broadbent (Pheon models) over on the aerodrome site is producing someoutstanding decal sets for this kit now and Lozenge to follow very very soon.

I so wanted to build mine as Robert von Greim's DVa, as I have the Roden Dr. I i in his markings but the lack of lozenge made me plump for Neithammers.


but it will look spectacular in that green and white, I look forwards to seeing your build progress.

Cheers Keith
Mgunns
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 01:59 AM UTC
Greetings Mikeal:

I have both of WNW Albatros kits and like you, I wasn't real smitten by the markings, but was/am by the kits. I am in modeling hiatus now due to summer and riding weather, but will be tackling these come autumn and the Motorcycle is put to bed for the winter hibernation. I am looking forward to your progress on this build and the markings you choose.
Best

Mark
thegirl
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 03:52 AM UTC
Will be a very colourful when done !

I know Stephen will be able to aid you in your question , for I still find it very confusing when it comes to German camo and the like .

It would depend on where the aircraft was build . OAW aircraft had lozenge covering on their wings , while others built else where have the two tone camo wings , Mavue and green or green and brown .

Sorry I couldn't be of more help but most of my info is on the D.III
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 06:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I cant say for certain, I'm sure someone will why the seeming switch back and forth between loz and camo, guessig it was supply and demand, that plus changes/repairs made in the field.

Markingwise, yes I too was somewhat underwhelmed at the choices...and lack of lozenge in the WNW box, but fear not Rowan Broadbent (Pheon models) over on the aerodrome site is producing someoutstanding decal sets for this kit now and Lozenge to follow very very soon.

I so wanted to build mine as Robert von Greims DVa, as I have the Roden DRi in his markings but the lack of lozenge made me plump for Neithammers.


but it will look spectacular in that green and white, I look forwards to seeing your build progress.

Cheers Keith



Hi Keith

Thank You – I think your Niethammer is very nicely executed indeed. I too looked a bit at Greims DVa, but when the DVII comes out (hopefully soon) I might do one in his colours, so I'm saving it til then.

I have seen the work of Rowan Broadbent over at the "Drome", and what can I say, it looks really really good. I will probably get some for the DV – I do really like both Baumers Edelwiess and "Lulu" + a very nice Jasta 4 machine with dots and... Hmmmm I seem to need some more DV kits as well

Best Regards

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 06:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Greetings Mikeal:

I have both of WNW Albatros kits and like you, I wasn't real smitten by the markings, but was/am by the kits. I am in modeling hiatus now due to summer and riding weather, but will be tackling these come autumn and the Motorcycle is put to bed for the winter hibernation. I am looking forward to your progress on this build and the markings you choose.
Best

Mark



Greetings Mark

Good to hear from you – Seems you are having a nice summer brake from modelling riding your bike. My summer brake was mostly spent building a shed, and a fence in the garden...

I agree with you on the kits – they are really very nice. I'm hoping they'll build as nice as they look.

Best Regards and ride safely

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 06:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Will be a very colourful when done !

I know Stephen will be able to aid you in your question , for I still find it very confusing when it comes to German camo and the like .

It would depend on where the aircraft was build . OAW aircraft had lozenge covering on their wings , while others built else where have the two tone camo wings , Mavue and green or green and brown .

Sorry I couldn't be of more help but most of my info is on the D.III



Hello Terri

Thank You for your bits of info – I had not even considered that there also was OAW D.V/D.Va versions. I think you're right this may well have played a part into the different coverings.

I seem to remember from somewhere that OAW built Albatros DIII types much longer, even after the D.V production had started.

Best Regards

Mikael
JackFlash
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi again

Right away I have a question for the learned panel of this forum – its regarding engine options and cover material of flight surfaces.

I am a little confused over the fact that an earlier D.V types, say Bruno Loerzer's D.V 2299/17 is profiled as having lozenge, while Paul Baumer's later D.V 4409/17 is profiled as having Mauve/Green wings... (from the Osprey series of books)

The two planes belonged to two different batches, that were ordered in May (2299/17) and July (4409/17) of 1917. (accoring to Windsock Special on the Albatros fighter p.55)

The only way I can explain this is that the different order batches where built simultainosly, and the factories did not wait for one batch to be finished, but assiged the planes their individual numbers from the batches that were then in production?

Now my quiestion is really do we know (at least roughly) At what point (plane numbers) during the various batches of DV and DVa productions that Albatros started appying Lozenge to the flight surfaces?



Yes we know because of the various studies that have come from people like dan san Abbott and Charles Gosse. They have composed a list of a/c by serial number. The characteristics are plotted. The shipments of lozenge to the varios factories was not enough to cover all German aircraft manufactured in 1917 -1918. Therfore a secondary method of camouflage was used in contract orders. The sprayed two toned camouflage was used when the factory's stocks of lozenge printyed fabric were low. The average is every 125 -150 airframes aletrnated between lozenge printed fabric or two toned painted camouflage.


Quoted Text

Also when (plane numbers) during the batches did they start putting the 180 hp engine in from the factory?

WNW instructions claim that most D.V were indeed fitted with the 160hp engine – but what was the story on the D.Va? And would the 200hp have been put in from the factory at all?



Ok from my review of the WNW kit . ". . . The early D.V types saw the installation of the Mercedes D.IIIa 170hp. It has a small air pump in front of the #1 cylinder. The rocker assembly ( PP E 6 ) is representative of the 170hp. The immediate visual difference in the early Mercedes 160 hp D.III / 170 hp D.IIIa and its progeny the 180hp D.IIIaü is the rocker springs exposed above the cylinder jacket heads (PP E 27). On the D.III and early D.IIIa motors the rocker springs are centered on the sides of the rocker box covers. On the late 170hp D.IIIa & the 180hp D.IIIaü motor the springs are located on the forward leading edge of the same covers. The rest is below the cowling and not readily visible. Several good manufacturers note the difference and have two distinct castings. Wingnut Wings has followed suit. The Mercedes 160hp was outclassed by 1917. The Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was the standard engine in both of the Albatros D.V & Va starting in late 1917 through 1918. Many, many D. III and IIIa type motors were rebuilt to the D.IIIaü specs at the airparks as the war progressed. That is why some captured examples had motors with the i.d. designation of 160hp D.III cast into their crankcases. This has caused the misconception that the standard 160hp and 170hp were used in 1918 at a time when they had become obsolete.

As mentioned if you are doing a late production D.V version you will need to duplicate the Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp engine. Primarily the water pump on the D.IIIaü is located directly behind the oil pump and some of the external plumbing is routed differently. Also it has a thicker stand up air pump in front of the #1 cylinder. Add fine wire painted black or white to make spark plug wires. . ."


WNW Alb. D.V review click here.


Quoted Text

Rather a longwinded question – Hoping this makes some sense to somebody that can follow my logic here at the forum... (not sure I can follow it myself)

Best Regards

Mikael



I hope this helps.
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Thursday, August 12, 2010 - 07:23 PM UTC
Greetings Stephen

– Always the source of great knowledge – Thank You very much for your clarifications they really do help.

Very interesting explanation to the varying coverings of flying surfaces – It has put my mind at rest – I should've known it was supply and demand!

– I'll just model on now

Best Regards

Mikael
lcarroll
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Posted: Friday, August 13, 2010 - 04:26 PM UTC
Mikael,
Got to be Dilthey's D.Va. I did it in 1/48th (Eduard) several years back, Stunning color scheme and turned out very well. Still have my research notes on color, where and when, why this sceme is not Degelow's, etc etc etc. If you "hit the wall" with a question I'd be glad to help as I may have been there already.
My WNW D.Va is still in shipment, and like you, I'M not really keen on the suppllied schemes other than "Stropp" ; may wait for some more aftermarket stuff although Pheon is looking better by the day!

Kugar 39
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Friday, August 13, 2010 - 10:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mikael,
Got to be Dilthey's D.Va. I did it in 1/48th (Eduard) several years back, Stunning color scheme and turned out very well. Still have my research notes on color, where and when, why this sceme is not Degelow's, etc etc etc. If you "hit the wall" with a question I'd be glad to help as I may have been there already.
My WNW D.Va is still in shipment, and like you, I'M not really keen on the suppllied schemes other than "Stropp" ; may wait for some more aftermarket stuff although Pheon is looking better by the day!

Kugar 39



Hi Kugar!

Thank You for your offer - I shall certainly take you up on that if (when) I "hit the wall"

I do agree with you on the Pheon D.V/D.Va decals in the making - my D.V airframe will probably be covered with one of Rowans creations, quiestion is which one?

Im also very keen to see what he's planning for the Jasta 5 green tails that he promised earlier this year. I saw some early designs, but not sure what will be produced in the end...

Best Regards

Mikael
bstachel
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Posted: Saturday, August 14, 2010 - 09:57 AM UTC
Mikael, Dan San Abbott kindly furnished me with a list copiled from his observations and records of serial nos pertaining to Albatros DV/Va production batches and covering practices. It's over on The Aerodrome, thread dated 1st July.
I also wanted to be sure re lozenge or painted camo and have plumped for Rowans upcoming Jast Raben example and "Lulu" !

Hope you find the thread useful! Regards, Richard


OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 09:54 PM UTC
Hi All,

Well – time for a first update in my buildlog for the WNW DVa...

So far I’ve enjoyed this kit very much, it does seem to build as beautiful as it looks, with no major hastle so far (althogh I’m only at the starting off point.)

As I have foolishly opted to build Helmut Diltheys DVa that has Lozenge covered wings I had a rather big problem from the start. Soooo, much time has been spent on trying to solve this. (Why build a well enginered kit out of the box when you can complicate things much, much more?)

My plan is or was to:

A: Print out Lozenge on an Ink Jet, and see how I could get this to work (after reading Stephens posts in Lozenge 101 I was not too optimistic)

B: If this failed, use what I had in the cupboard, i.e. 5 colour Loz from Techmond (which after looking at them again seems pretty way off colourwise, and is therefore not an option)

C: Get on my knees and beg WNW to sell me a couple of sheets (This might still happen)

D: Scrap the Lozenge and Dilthey altogehter and build the STROPP version out of the box instead....


Well so far I have explored option A. with a mixed result if I may say so... I started off by using Doug Bowmans 5 colour Lozenge which he kindly has posted at the Aerodrome (I’m a member over there too, althogh I don’t post). Dougs Lozenge

I did however redraw the patterns as vector grapics, to be able to tweak the colours to suit the inkjet printer I have access to. I used Testors white waterslide paper, and I sealed it with W&N matt varnish for artist oils and acrylics. This gave a rather nice matt sheen, and made the waterslides rather ”chewy” to cut.


– Oh Yeah thats the stuff....


Upper wing with underside Loz – a bit wrinkly in places – paitience, paitence give its ome time to dry...

The decals went on reasonably well, and settled down OK too – but they are fairly prone to shed the colours on the edges (as you can probably see from my repair on the trailing edge), and are a bit harder to work than the comercial stuff. I’m not alltogether happy with the result yet... i’ll try some upper as well tonight and then we’ll see. i have not used any decal softener so far.

I have also started with the Cockpit and engine compartments. doing the basic woodgraining with oils and started detailing the engine. These pics are very much work in progress...




I'll ad some shadow and highligts later. Posibly overspray the wood with Tamiya orange clear.


I've added some wires and tubes for greater detail on the engine – which by the way is really beautiful as it comes in the kit. Obvously there is a bit more paint and whashes to come.

Thats if for now I’ll be back with more updates when I can.

All and any comments are most welcome.

Best Regards

Mikael


Kornbeef
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:28 PM UTC
Looking very good so far Mikael, I would coat the wood in clear yellow rather than orange though personally.

Intrigued to see how the decals are coming out, I've been tempted to do the same but even now with my DIII (OAW) in its late stages I'm on the fence. Hoping that Rowan Broadbent's Loz will be out before I take the plunge but its likely she will end up cammoed before that happens.

Anyway I wont detract from your excellent work. If you need pointers on anything just shout..lots have gone this path before you so draw on our experiences.

Keith
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Looking very good so far Mikael, I would coat the wood in clear yellow rather than orange though personally.

Intrigued to see how the decals are coming out, I've been tempted to do the same but even now with my DIII (OAW) in its late stages I'm on the fence. Hoping that Rowan Broadbent's Loz will be out before I take the plunge but its likely she will end up cammoed before that happens.

Anyway I wont detract from your excellent work. If you need pointers on anything just shout..lots have gone this path before you so draw on our experiences.

Keith



– Thank You Keith for your kind remarks – I am intrigued myself as to how this Loz experiment will end. I also have high hopes for the Pheon Lozenge product, hoping to see this on the market soon.

Also a big Thank You for your offer of help along the way – I shall certainly need it I think. (You've already helped when you posted your excellent buildthread, giving me many pointers).

Best Regards

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mikael, Dan San Abbott kindly furnished me with a list copiled from his observations and records of serial nos pertaining to Albatros DV/Va production batches and covering practices. It's over on The Aerodrome, thread dated 1st July.
I also wanted to be sure re lozenge or painted camo and have plumped for Rowans upcoming Jast Raben example and "Lulu" !

Hope you find the thread useful! Regards, Richard



Hi Richard

– Thank You for your pointer to the article on Aerodrome earlier, it was most useful. I think you've choosen two really nice colour schemes for your Albatroses. (After seeing Brad Cancains "Lulu" in 1:48, this was on my shortlist)

Best Regards

Mikael

JackFlash
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 02:53 AM UTC
Most impressive work on the build thus far. I really like the method you chose to do the lozenge decal. That chewy factor may just be the ticket to deal with compound curves. Don't forget to make lozenge for rib tapes if thats fits your chosen profile.
thegirl
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 03:13 AM UTC
She is coming along very nicely so far Mikael !
gajouette
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 03:55 AM UTC
Mikael,
What a stellar project my friend.Absolutely beautiful details and painting.I'm very impressed with your wood graining.I truly suspect another Masterpiece is in the offing.Really looking forward to your next awesome update.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 07:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Most impressive work on the build thus far. I really like the method you chose to do the lozenge decal. That chewy factor may just be the ticket to deal with compound curves. Don't forget to make lozenge for rib tapes if thats fits your chosen profile.



Thank You Stephen

– Yep I think the "chewy factor" is working to my advantage this time. I did some upper Lozenge last night, and it still seems to work OK. Only problem was that I managed to damage the trailng edge under the wing, but I think its repairable.

As for the ribtapes I plan to use the light blue that was leftover from my WNW LVG build. As far as I can tell Helmut Diltehys Albatros used light blue on the upperwing...

However, looking at the picure in the WNW instructions of the DVa, I'm not sure about the ribtapes on the lowerwings – could they be mauve?

I could be mistaken, but the do look slightly darker, anyone here care to take a guess?

Best Regards

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 08:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

She is coming along very nicely so far Mikael !



– Thank You Terri

Best Regards

Mikael
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - 08:51 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mikael,
What a stellar project my friend.Absolutely beautiful details and painting.I'm very impressed with your wood graining.I truly suspect another Masterpiece is in the offing.Really looking forward to your next awesome update.
Highest Regards,
Gregory Jouette



Greetings Greogory, and Thank You for your kind words – we'll see how the masterpiece goes

Warmest Regards

Mikael
RAGIII
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Posted: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 02:22 PM UTC
Mikael,
A lot of progress from a sock! Seriously, brautiful work on this one so far!
RAGIII
OEFFAG_153
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Posted: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 08:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mikael,
A lot of progress from a sock! Seriously, brautiful work on this one so far!
RAGIII



Thank You Rick for your kind words – Yep its amazing what you can do with a bit of glue and some paint these days

Best Regards

Mikael