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Aeroscale P-47 Thunderbolt SIG
TedMamere
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Moselle, France
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Posted: Friday, November 23, 2007 - 11:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Jean-Luc.
One of my reference books states that the 56FG "Bubbletops" were delivered to Boxted in NMF and painted there, so this would make your earlier photo the correct finish
Sorry its a late answer, it'll probably help future builders more than you as I guess youve already got the decals on



Hi Nigel!

Yes, I'm afraid it's too late...



... but I will put the blame on you!

Jean-Luc
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 04:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Jean-Luc.
One of my reference books states that the 56FG "Bubbletops" were delivered to Boxted in NMF and painted there, so this would make your earlier photo the correct finish
Sorry its a late answer, it'll probably help future builders more than you as I guess youve already got the decals on



Hi Nigel!

Yes, I'm afraid it's too late...



... but I will put the blame on you!

Jean-Luc



Hi Jean-Luc.
Actually its not too late as your P47 is a Razorback and would have most probably have been delivered in olive drab and is highly likely to be correct.
Luckily neither of us are dedicated "rivet counters"
So,,,a double congratulations are in order.
Firstly,,congratulations on a stunning P-47!!.
The spinning prop looks fabulous. What colours did you use for the camouflage scheme?
My only complaint is that there is only one photo!,,Is a photo feature with plenty of closeups too much to ask for?
Secondly, congratulations on posting the100th reply to the SIG!
Heres to many many more

Jean-Luc, Ive found a photo which would make an interesting diorama for you.
It even features "your" P-47!,,so historically nobody would be able to dispute it



Do you have any bicycles left over from your RAF Dispersal Diorama project ?
Nige
Merlin
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 06:04 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

What a superb build and paint-job! A real beauty! (And the Mark 58 base is great too!)


Quoted Text

Actually its not too late as your P47 is a Razorback and would have most probably have been delivered in olive drab and is highly likely to be correct.



Hi Nige - that's interesting, as I was only reading an article recently where the author cited this particular aircraft as an example delivered in n/m! In fact, from your photo, it looks like the canopy frame might be n/m (with some camouflage overspay at the bottom edge), along with the area behind the cockpit.

The spinning propeller does indeed look great - but I'd hate to be on any airfield with a P-47 left with the engine running, no wheel chocks and no pilot or ground personnel in sight!...

All the best

Rowan
lampie
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 08:32 AM UTC
Hi Rowan
This could turn into the P-47 version of the "hard/soft edge camo debate"
I do however stand corrected, as another reference of mine states that the nmf finish deliveries started with the D-21 series.
The first 56FG NMF P-47 was Razorback 42-26044 and was christened "Silver Lady".
"I Wanted Wings" and Silver Lady were both P-47D-22's and so would have been delivered in nmf
I have colour photos of Razorbacks that have been painted in varying paint schemes with the canopy frames left in bare metal.
I suppose that proves that ground crews didnt like masking canopies either!
All the colour photos Ive had chance to check up till now have had the flaps in the "up" position naturally
Nige
TedMamere
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Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 11:03 AM UTC
Hi Nigel and Rowan!


Quoted Text

What colours did you use for the camouflage scheme?



For the grey/green camouflage I used the colors I've mixed for my Dispersal Hurricane. I know there is a debat about the exact colors used by the 56FG. I'm speculating that they used British colors. The overspray of the D-Day markings is American Olive Drab though.


Quoted Text

My only complaint is that there is only one photo!,,Is a photo feature with plenty of closeups too much to ask for?



This is a build I'm doing for a French modelling magazine so I'm afraid it won't be an Aeroscale feature because of copyright. Once the project is finished, neither the model nore the pictures will be mine anymore.


Quoted Text

Jean-Luc, Ive found a photo which would make an interesting diorama for you.
It even features "your" P-47!,,so historically nobody would be able to dispute it



Thanks for the additional picture! I see that the landing gear covers were indeed left bare metal. That's fortunately how I did on my model. I also see that the pitot tube seems to be aluminium with a black end... or was this a ground protection?


Quoted Text

The spinning propeller does indeed look great - but I'd hate to be on any airfield with a P-47 left with the engine running, no wheel chocks and no pilot or ground personnel in sight!...



Rowan, a GMC Fuel Truck, a je... sorry light vehicle , some figures and even wheel chocks will be included on the diorama... but no bicycles this time

Here are other "in progress" pictures...







Thanks for all the help guys, especially you Nigel! I wrote the 100th post? Do I receive a prize now?

Jean-Luc
lampie
#029
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 01:55 AM UTC
Thanks for the extra photos Jean-Luc.
That engine wiring looks fantastic!!
Did you manage to change the serial number?,,I cant quite see on the photos but it looks as though you got the correct one on.
A prize for the 100th post?,,hmm,,,,dunno.. Im actually thinking that my Halesworth Museum build might look nice on a Mark58 base
When will the magazine be published? Are you writing the text for the article as well, and where would I be able to get my hands on a copy?
The pitot tube in the "unicycle" photo looks as though its got its protective cover on.
On "Boxted era" Wolfpack photos the pitot tubes all appear to be bare metal. Its only on the earlier photos, (Horsham/Halesworth), that the main shaft of the pitot tubes are painted olive drab with the end left in bare metal.
Im very happy to have been able to help you out on the research Jean-Luc.
Research questions is one of the main reasons I started this SIG, and its very satisfying seeing your finished T'bolt knowing that the SIG had a small part to play in ensuring the models accuracy.
Do you remember my comment about the artwork being painted over a single cowling panel? One of the reasons being that the panel could be transfered between P-47's?
Ive found further evidence of this "single panel artwork" theory.
One is a photograph of a groundcrewman painting the artwork with the panel lying on the grass, making the actual painting a lot more comfortable,( and portable).
The second is a drawing in George Rareys book "Laughter and Tears".
One entry shows a cowling panel set up on a makeshift easel. and its states that there was no flying that day so he painted some cowlings.
Nige
TedMamere
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 07:29 AM UTC
Hi Nigel!


Quoted Text

Did you manage to change the serial number?,,I cant quite see on the photos but it looks as though you got the correct one on.



Yes I changed the 0 into an 8 with a small brush.


Quoted Text

Im actually thinking that my Halesworth Museum build might look nice on a Mark58 base



Christmas is not far away, maybe you should ask Santa Claus


Quoted Text

When will the magazine be published? Are you writing the text for the article as well, and where would I be able to get my hands on a copy?



The article should be published around March. Yes I'm also writing it... in French! This should make it easier for me!


Quoted Text

Im very happy to have been able to help you out on the research Jean-Luc.



All the informations you gathered where very helpfull. Thank you very much again!

Jean-Luc
lampie
#029
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:01 AM UTC
Your very welcome Jean-Luc
Christmas?,,oh yes,,25th of December. Thats my next day off! I have 2 days between now and Jan 8th next year (25+26/12), as one tour has just rolled straight into another.
So I wont be writing to Santa,,LOL
Anyway,,Ive moved house since last Christmas and I havent told him where I live now
Good luck with the magazine articles JL

Lars,,whats happened to all your photos??
Anyone else working on P-47s at the moment?
Nige
Merlin
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:39 AM UTC
Hi again

I hardly dare ask, because it's the "elephant in the room" question! - but this is an S.I.G. - if Jean-Luc's "I Wanted Wings" was a P-47D-22, would the interior have more likely been Dull Dark Green? According to Squadron / D&S, only Curtiss used Chromate Green primer for their P-47Gs...

Cue sirens and flashing lights IQ-style ( a UK TV programme) as Stephen Fry grins smugly before he taunts the naive questioner and deducts 50 points!

All the best

Rowan
lampie
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 12:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi again

I hardly dare ask, because it's the "elephant in the room" question! - but this is an S.I.G. - if Jean-Luc's "I Wanted Wings" was a P-47D-22, would the interior have more likely been Dull Dark Green? According to Squadron / D&S, only Curtiss used Chromate Green primer for their P-47Gs...

Cue sirens and flashing lights IQ-style ( a UK TV programme) as Stephen Fry grins smugly before he taunts the naive questioner and deducts 50 points!

All the best

Rowan



Well,,,Mr Fry
About time this question turned up in the SIG and well worth a 50 point deduction.
Its one of those questions that will fill endless hours on these dark winter nights and we will probably never come to a conclusion that everyone will agree to.
Curtiss are reported to have purchased their zinc cromate green (Curtiss Cockpit Green) from a supplier called Berry Brothers.
The Curtiss manufactured P-47's (designated P-47G) were all Razorbacks. 345 in total.
Dull Dark Green was introduced around Sept 1942, which is the same time as the first P-47C's started to roll off the production lines at Farmingdale.So is "technically correct" for all Farmingdale and Evansville T'bolts.
Heres some text from the excellent "Interior Colours of US Aircraft" on the IPMS Stockholm site.

Quoted Text

The subject of cockpit colours of the P-47 seems to have thus far defied conclusive analysis. Surviving P-47s and contemporary photos show a dark green shade in the cockpit, similar or possibly equal to Dull Dark Green. This is in contrast with the available Erection and Maintenance manuals which invariably call for green-tinted primer in cockpit areas.

The 1944 Erection and Maintenance Instructions covering P-47C, G and D state that "cockpits shall be finished with one coat of tinted zinc chromate primer to eliminate glare resulting from untinted primer." As can bee seen, the use of "tinted primer" is not consistent with the Dark Dull Green found in other evidence.

Perhaps an explanation is to be found in the formula of tinted primer given in the above manual. Nowhere in the above document is the tinted Zinc Chromate specified to match ANA Interior Green. Instead, the specifications include a rudimentary mixing formula, described as one gallon Black to one gallon Yellow Zinc Chromate primer. The formula is probably an error. If the intended colour was to be Interior Green, the document should have stated 1/10 gallon Black to 1 gallon Zinc Chromate, consistent with other Erection and Maintenance documents of the period.

A possibility remains that Republic followed the instructions to the letter, obtaining some sort of black-green colour for the cockpit areas. Other hypotheses claim that the colour used could be Bronze Green or Dull Dark Green. Another mystery.

Another conventional wisdom states that Curtiss-built P-47Gs differed from Republic-build P-47Ds by having Interior Green (actually, Curtiss Cockpit Green) in the cockpit and wheel well areas. However, this does not seem to be consistent with examination of wrecked P-47G parts, which show Dark Dull Green in the cockpit.

Since there were less than 200 P-47Gs made and they were only used for training in the US, this controversy is of limited interest to modellers, which would usually be interested in Republic-made Thunderbolts.

According to the Erection and Maintenance manuals, the fuselage decking under the bubble canopy of the P-47D from the windscreen to the area aft of the cockpit armour plating, was to be painted Dark Olive Drab 41, the same colour being specified for the anti-glare area of the forward fuselage. Armour plating was specified to the same colour as the interior finish of the cockpit.

Another yet unresolved mystery is the turtleback area beneath the rearmost cockpit window of the razorback versions. Many variants have been called for, but the most likely choices (based on the available contemporary colour photographs) are Olive Drab for the early camouflaged aircraft, and some kind of medium grey further down in the production.

According to factory instructions, the fuselage decking inside the canopy on bubbletop Thunderbolts was to be painted in Olive Drab, with the inside of the canopy framing in flat black. The rear armour plate in the cockpit was to be painted to match the cockpit interior colour.

Interiors of P47 aircraft cowlings were natural metal. The aluminium in this area was anodised giving a darker and very dull greyish appearance. The engine firewall was left unpainted. Engine mounts were primed in Zinc Chromate Green



My own personal preference is to use Humbrol 117, with a dark brown wash. Dry brushed in various lighter greens and silver.

Hope this is worth a few of the 50 points

Thankyou Mr Fry

Nige
TedMamere
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Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 07:02 PM UTC
Hi Rowan and Nigel!

I'm sure the interior color is exact because It's what Tamiya suggested in the instructions and everybody knows the kit's instructions are always correct!

I followed a similar debate about the interior colors of the P-51 D on a French forum lately. Two guys, after pages of heated analysis of an original photo showing a small part of the seat, agreed... not to agree!

Here is a picture I took to show the colors I used for the interior...



Jean-Luc
f1matt
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2007 - 07:37 AM UTC
Jean-Luc, your P-47 is beautiful. The airbrushed camo is exquisite. A feast for the eyes. How did you model the spinning propeller?
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2007 - 08:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How did you model the spinning propeller?



Hi Matthew!

Thanks for the kind words. For the spinning propeller I used Tamiya's special boxing of the P-47 kit wich includes a motor. The original box is a Bubbletop version but I adapted the motor to the Razorback kit since both are very similar.



Jean-Luc
wingman
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2007 - 09:37 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc. Your Jug is outstanding, a real work of art. I was wondering, does the model itself wobble or move around at all when she is cranked up and running? Again, great job, Wingman out.
TedMamere
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Posted: Monday, November 26, 2007 - 06:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

does the model itself wobble or move around at all when she is cranked up and running?



Hi Michael!

I was concerned by that too when I started the build. I though I would have to fix the model to the base in some way to prevent it from moving around but no, the P-47 stays on it's feets without shaking at all.

Jean-Luc
lampie
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Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:32 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc.
Id figured where the motor went etc but I looking for the switch.
Is it where the belly tank would normally attach?..if so,can you build the model with an electric prop and still fit the belly tank? also is it possible to change the battery?
Im not surprised the P-47 doesnt wobble around when the motors running,,its that famous wide and sturdy Thunderbolt undercarriage doing its job still,but in 1:48 scale
Nige
CRS
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Posted: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:39 AM UTC
Switches? We don't need no stinking Switches. Sorry couldn't help myself
TedMamere
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:37 AM UTC
Hi Nigel!

There is no switch. You just have to push the propeller and it turns. So yes, you can still fit anything you want under the belly of the model.

To change the battery you must seperate the engine/cowling subassembly which isn't glued in place. Everything is well designed I must say... typical Tamiya quality.

Jean-Luc
Holdfast
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Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 08:05 AM UTC
Jean-Luc, a superb Jug
I am officially joining this SIG, nice one Nige For Our club Theme for next years Scale Modelworld show, "Poles Apart" (each member is building a model from their comfort zone, aircraft for me and one which is very different, Armour in my case ) Now I am actually planning on doing 2 seperate builds, 4 models and one of them will be Hasegawa's 1/32 P-47 I don't have many references so this might be the ideal place. I opened the box this evening and I would like to tart up the cockpit, so can anyone point me in the right direction to get some detailed cockpit pics
Mal
lampie
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Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:54 AM UTC
Hi Mal.
Welcome on board
I have some cockpit pics. What version are you planning on building? The kit floor is only correct for the later decal option, although Eduard have addressed this in their detail set.
The Gabreski P-47s would have the earlier corrugated floor.
Also you need to drill the rudder pedals through.
Let me know what you need in the way of pics etc.
Nige
lampie
#029
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Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:46 AM UTC
Hi Mal.
An excellent book, especially for those modellers on a budget, who are looking to add some extra detail to their Bubbletops is Republic P-47 Thunderbolt "Bubbletop" by Robert Peczkowski. Mushroom Model Magazine Special # 6118. ISBN # 83-89450-13-5
Its packed with colour photos showing details of cockpits, wheelbays, undercarriage, engine etc. Theres a development section complete with 1:72 scale plans and also a selection of colour profiles.
Its listed on Amazon and various other sites, and you should be able to pick up a copy for less than 10 ( including P&P).
As usual in books like this, the majority of the photos are of preserved aircraft, so dont take colours etc as gospel,however the vast majority of the information on offer is valid and extremely usefull for modellers.

Ive just realised that my P-47 library is now in the region of 30 books!
Must be something to do with the amount of time I have available to read as opposed to available modelling time,(which at the moment is ZERO)

Nige
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Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 04:12 AM UTC
Thanks for that Nige I will look out for one

Mal
lampie
#029
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Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 01:05 PM UTC
Merry Xmas/Happy Holidays to all the P-47 Fans!
In 2008 Im hoping to have the SIG represented at a model show for the first time.
More about this at a later date.
For now,,heres an Xmas/New Year trivia question.
Only one aircraft used by the 56FG in the ETO is preserved intact. What is this aircraft and where can it be found?
Your only clue is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,its NOT a P-47.
Happy New Year!
Nige
FalkeEins
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Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 02:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text


This is a build I'm doing for a French modelling magazine so I'm afraid it won't be an Aeroscale feature because of copyright. Once the project is finished, neither the model nore the pictures will be mine anymore.



..can't answer that one I'm afraid ....just dipping a toe into this SIG, well done guys - especially love wingman's work ..stunning ......!!

super build too Jean-Luc - look forward to the article - Replic..?
it occurs to me that the colour image of this machine (posted earlier in the thread 'J Ethell collection' ) is in fact a USAF photo so if you could get hold of a good quality scan I think I'm right in saying there would be nothing to stop you using it in your article (no copyright) - I last saw it reproduced in the Flight Journal special on the Thunderbolt published in 2003 ..very well worth getting for the library too Nige - as are the three Kagero T-Bolt monographs, especially for the super colour from Jim Crow's collection (although I would say that perhaps..)
not wishing in any way to be disrespectful to those brave men who fought for our freedom, but being on the 'dark side' it would nice to see a yellow-bellied Versuchsstaffel (Sonderkommando Rosarius) T-Bolt at some point here.....
lampie
#029
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Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2007 - 04:48 AM UTC
Hi Neil.
Welcome to the P-7 SIG.
I thought for a moment you were going to dive in with the answer to my little brain teaser!
There certainly is some stunning work being shown in the SIG. Im looking forward to much more in 2008 and beyond.
There are 4 of the Kagero books, and I only need volume 3 to complete the set. I'll keep an eye out for the Flight Journal special .
Nige