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World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
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Aeroscale P-47 Thunderbolt SIG
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 05:44 AM UTC
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 03:43 AM UTC
Now I've got the Jug-bug bad, so I'll take an occational peek in the box every night. Got a few things that bothers me though. My machine for next year will have a OD topside and NMF belly, but how did they slab the stripes on?

Were the stripes painted, so that they had to be covered with new OD paint on the topside, or was it more like sludge-paint, that could be washed off? It will be a bit different methods in achieving the right finish depending on which method that was used.

FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Some excellent 56th FG nose art photos from Rdriscoll.
Nige



..perhaps we should mention that these are sourced from Aces & Wingmen II Vol 2 by Hess, Frisque and Danny Morris - and that there are several more pages like that in the book .....in fact Nige - and anyone else into Little Friends - you really should get hold of these books. I've got to know Danny over the past few months when he was kind enough to contact me about the JG 300 books I worked on. He was the driving force behind three Aces & Wingmen volumes, the original 1972 edition 'Aces & Wingmen' (published by Neville Spearman who released the classic Shores 'Fighters over the Desert ' at the same time), a revised and up-dated edition 'Aces & Wingmen II vol 1' published by Aviation USK in 1989 with 600 photos, and the biggie - with over 1,200 photos - 'Aces & Wingmen II Vol 2' again from Aviation USK in 1999. With Danny's permission I shall soon be posting some material from the hard-to-find 1972 edition on my web site....stay tuned
mfoster
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Cape Province, South Africa
Joined: May 09, 2008
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 07:07 PM UTC
Good day i am new here and would just like to show you my p-47 in 1/32 scale


FalkeEins
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 858 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:05 AM UTC
..very nice Mike ! - excellent representation of Glenn Eagleston's FT-L 44-20473, which he flew on the 353FS's first ever P-47 sortie on 15 December 1944 - although that mission was an 'unarmed' weather recon.

As the 'Pioneer' Mustang Group the pilots of the 354th FG felt very hard done-by at having to convert from the P-51 back to the P-47. Eagleston himself was initially not overly enamoured with the Jug and later recalled;

" ..it seemed unthinkable that as successful as our group had been with P-51s anyone in their right mind would think of transitioning us to P-47s. The news that we were to switch ..caused mass wailing, gnashing of teeth and beating of chests - almost a refusal to fly the damned things !"

Some in the group had more considered opinions since the P-47 was the ideal a/c for the almost constant round of ground attack sorties flown by the 354th interdicting over and behind the Siegfried Line and later the 'Bulge' ;
" It takes a damn lot of flak to destroy 7 1/2 tons of aircraft ".
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
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Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 - 10:36 AM UTC
Very nice Mike!
Im looking forward to building my Hasegawa P-47's.

Hi Tony.


Quoted Text

Now I've got the Jug-bug bad, so I'll take an occational peek in the box every night. Got a few things that bothers me though. My machine for next year will have a OD topside and NMF belly, but how did they slab the stripes on?

Were the stripes painted, so that they had to be covered with new OD paint on the topside, or was it more like sludge-paint, that could be washed off? It will be a bit different methods in achieving the right finish depending on which method that was used.



The order to paint what we now know as "invasion stripes" was recieved at air bases on June 5th 1944. Picture the scene, you have to get EVERY aircraft painted straight away, if not before!
As youd imagine, the ground crews werent as exact in their masking as us modellers. It was a case of get the markings on ASAP.
I doubt the paint used would have washed off, can you imagine the mess the English weather would have made of it?
Invasion stripes on the upper surfaces were generally painted over in Olive Drab. I have seen photos of all NMF aircraft where the invasion stripes have been painted over in Olive Drab.
I dont have access to my "library" at the moment, but I'll try and remember to post a photo of the NMF P-47 with the stripes overpainted in OD.
Hope this answers your question.
Neil.
Aces + Wingmen is on my shopping list when funds allow, theyre very sort after books!
Nige
LongKnife
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Jönköping, Sweden
Joined: April 25, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 07:08 PM UTC
Nigel, that's exactly the answer I'm looking for. True or not, I'll go for it.


Quoted Text

can you imagine the mess the English weather would have made of it?



Frankly though, I've visited Duxford airshows three times, in different seasons, and the only time it rained was on the first Lancaster flyby. Got reasonably good pics anyway. I've also spent a week on a river tram, and we actually had a full day without rain. And they say it allways rains on the isles..

It's going to be a messy stripe job, with a lousy, but fresh overpaint. I guess I might even get to like the Jug after this.
Apex1701
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: July 08, 2007
KitMaker: 38 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 06:37 AM UTC
Hi guys,

two years ago I built this P-47M; Joy Boy from 56FG/61FS:




To determine the color I use for reference IPMS Quarterly Vol 11, #4.
See here for more information:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1129144219/Remnant+of+Elusive+Black+Paint+used+on+61st+FS+56th+FG+P-47M%27s+-+Photos

I hope it will help.

Jean
rdriscoll
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Florida, United States
Joined: November 24, 2007
KitMaker: 180 posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 29, 2008 - 03:12 PM UTC
Found another Color photo of 56 FG P-47

from Kookaburra Technical Publication
Markings of the Aces 8th Air Force Book 1.
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 08:45 AM UTC
Hi Jean
Very nice "M"
Are the decals from an aftermarket set?
Will you be joining in the P-47 group build in 2009?
Thanks for posting the pics.
Rex, thanks for posting. Its nice to see one of the less common Wolfpack planes featured.
Nige
Manzara
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Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Joined: July 19, 2008
KitMaker: 4 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 12:05 PM UTC
Hi!
My first post in this forum.
No P-47 model pictures to post yet, so here´s some pictures of my visit to Brazilian Air Force Museum. It was a closed visit, together with a FAB officer, so they let us sit in the cockpit...







Cheers,
Lúcio
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 11:35 PM UTC
HI Lucio.
Welcome to Aeroscale, and welcome to the P-47 sig.
Fabulous photos, thanks very much for posting them.
Looking forward to seeing more!
Nige
calvin2000
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Colorado, United States
Joined: July 25, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - 01:44 PM UTC
cool pictures. I like the drip pans one in front and one in back now that is a real airplane.
Later,
Kelly
29Foxtrot
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: September 19, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 01:04 AM UTC
Hi all,

Here are 2 of the P 47's I have on the go, the P47d Mk II in SEAC markings is the Hasegawa kit and it's not a powered model, I substituted the kit prop shaft with a piece of brass tube and when I was ready to take the pic, a slight wind spun the prop.

The other is the Tamiya P47m with the AeroMaster 'Wolf Pack' markings of 'Pengie.


Manzara
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Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Joined: July 19, 2008
KitMaker: 4 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:35 AM UTC
Hi!
Thanks for the warm wellcome!
The drip pan is there because the plane are in flyable condition...but will never fly. The plane belongs to Brazilian Air Force Museum and law forbids historic, state owned, planes to fly. But the museum staff performs some periodic engine runs.
Perhaps, if a wealthy pilot or businessman buy back from USA one of the restored P-47s ou "wise" autorities sold in the 80's(Hun Hunter, for example), we can see another p-47 flying in our airshows. I can dream...
Regards,
Lucio
betheyn
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#019
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: October 14, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 11:48 AM UTC
Great photo's Lucio, thanks for posting them.
When someone stands next to one, it really does show the immense size of the P-47.
Andy
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: December 23, 2005
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Posted: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 11:54 AM UTC
Great photos Rob, I briefly saw them before I went on holiday and now theyre gone?
Lucio,,at least you have a selection of P47s to see. There are only 2 in Europe!

Time for a bit of "then and now".
Anthony Carcione of the 62nd FS was a huge photography fan. Indeed, he even had his own darkroom setup in Schillings Acres. Unfortunately he was KIA in March 1944 but many of his photos, and indeed home movie footage remain.

Heres one of Tony with his P-47 42-7937 "Triss"


The cowling from Triss is today on display at the Aviation Museum in Flixton. Hopefully, one day it will make the short journey to Halesworth and come home to where it belongs.


A point of interest here is that in the b+w photo the cowling band is white, but the preserved panel had been painted in the yellow of 62ndFS. Note how theres a white area remaining around the artwork.This is very often seen on cowlings that carried different colored bands at various points in Note also that when the yellow cowling paint was applied the name "Triss" appears to have been painted out"

Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 01, 2008 - 09:17 AM UTC
I just noticed that in the ten months the P-47 SIG has been active its now passed the 10'000 views mark.
Thats a thousand views a month on average.
Cheers everyone!

Happy Thunderbolt researching

Nige
warlock0322
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: January 13, 2003
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
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Posted: Saturday, August 02, 2008 - 11:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I just noticed that in the ten months the P-47 SIG has been active its now passed the 10'000 views mark.
Thats a thousand views a month on average.
Cheers everyone!

Happy Thunderbolt researching

Nige



People know quality when they see it I guess..

One thing I did learn though as I am reading this book called " Hell Hawks" It is the story of the 365th FG of the 9th Air Force from their conception all the way through the war.

Here is a link if interested.

http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Hawks-American-Savaged-Wehrmacht/dp/0760329184

Anyway the reason I mention this is the White band on the cowling you mentioned. It states by the Authors and pilots interviewed the the White band was part of the invasion stripes because they ( the Pilots) state the P-47 looked like either a Fw190 or the ME 109 by other pilots. So the band was to prevent friendly fire.

I guess it would make sense in all the confusion that friendly fire was a great possibility, but I just struck me funny that one could confuse the 3 previous planes mentioned to one another as different as the look to us..

Paul
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, August 02, 2008 - 12:30 PM UTC
Hi Paul.
Thanks for the kind comments


Quoted Text

Anyway the reason I mention this is the White band on the cowling you mentioned. It states by the Authors and pilots interviewed the the White band was part of the invasion stripes because they ( the Pilots) state the P-47 looked like either a Fw190 or the ME 109 by other pilots. So the band was to prevent friendly fire.

I guess it would make sense in all the confusion that friendly fire was a great possibility, but I just struck me funny that one could confuse the 3 previous planes mentioned to one another as different as the look to us..

Paul



The initial batches of P-47's to arrive in the ETO were painted overall in olive drab/neutral grey. Early in 1943 it was decided that to attempt to avoid being mistaken for the only other radial engined fighter in the ETO ( The Fw190) white bands were to be painted on the cowling and tail surfaces of the Thunderbolts.
The P-47 pilots were aware that various Luftwaffe Staffeln were using bright nose colors, whereas all Thunderbolts wore white cowlings.
Pilots of the 56th FG suggested that painting their engine cowlings different colours could possibly fool Luftwaffe pilots into thinking their P-47s were friendly fighters at a distance.
Hub Zemke contacted General Kepner of 8th Fighter Command and requested permission to use the individual squadron colours that had adorned the 56th P-47 B's back in the USA.
Zemkes Thunderbolts first flew with the newly painted cowlings in the first week of Feb 1944. Around April 1944 the 56th adopted the 61st FS Red as the group cowling colour, and the individual squadron colours were moved to the rudders.
Every fighter group followed the 56th's example and adopted their own coloured cowlings.
Hope this answers your question
Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 10:59 PM UTC
I recieved an email today from Dave Gianakos, builder of a fabulous 1:6th scale R/C replica of Fire Ball.
I thought Id share these photos with you.




I want one of these!

Nige
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, August 07, 2008 - 08:58 AM UTC
Jesper raised a question in the group build thread asking what the differences were between a P-47D and the P-47N.
With the aid of scale plans from Roger Freemans book on Thunderbolts I'll explain the main differences.
Firstly, heres a plan of a P-47D.

Although its a Razorback (pre P-47D-25) the wings are the same as the "Bubbletop" variants, and this is where the major difference between the D and the N is.
Heres a P-47N plan.

The first thing thats immediately apparent is the size and shape of the P-47N wing. Its bigger than a D and the wing tips are clipped. You'll also see where the undercarriage has been moved further out from the fusalage.Making an already solid undercarriage even more stable. The extra space between the undercarriage and the fusalage enabled more fuel tanks to be fitted, increasing the fuel capacity to 556 US gal as opposed to 370 in the P-47M, and a larger surface area for the flaps. The wingspan of an N is almost 3 feet (90 cm) more than other models.
Another thing to look for on a P-47N is the larger rear fusalage fillet, although sometimes the same fillet was fitted to the P-47D and P-47M in the field. One thing you will notice in that area of an N is a selection of ariels, some of which I believe were part of the tail warning radar system.
There were many other minor differences between the P-47N and earlier models but the wings are the dead give away to enable you to distinguish the N from the D or M.
Hope this helps.
Nige
davegee
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United States
Joined: August 08, 2008
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Posted: Friday, August 08, 2008 - 11:22 AM UTC
Hi Nigel: great website you guys have here. Some really magnificent models and information about the jug here. Regarding colors of the posted model Fire Ball that my partner Bob Frey and I built, I concur that there really is no known authentic source for the colors of the 63rd FS M model planes. I have even spoken to crew chiefs of the 56th FG and they don't remember the exact colors used. And at this late date with so few of them still around who might know for sure, I'm afraid this will always be a point to debate. Using the best info I had, I made a decision to use insignia blue for the dark areas and RAF Azure blue for the light areas. The rudder was painted an intermediate blue, and I just had to go with a gut feeling as to what I thought was close.

I look forward to checking this great website out in the future, and talking to other P-47 and aviation history buffs.

Cheers,

Davegee
Siderius
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Tennessee, United States
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Posted: Friday, August 08, 2008 - 03:00 PM UTC
I was curious about the colors on your 63FG P-47M Nigel. The reason I ask, is the reference material I found showed not quite as dark a dark blue, almost a black-blue; but instead a deep blue. On my 1/72 scale P-47M which is on the SIG forum, I think the first page; I used British azure blue overall with of course aluminum undersides. For the other color I just picked a dark blue which compared to yours dosen't look dark enough? Have I made a mistake or is there some room for interpretation. Thanks. Russell
lampie
#029
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 08, 2008 - 10:49 PM UTC
Hi Dave.
Welcome to the P-47 SIG. Im glad you found your way here ok.
Your knowledge and research are very welcome here, and I look forward to your contributions.
Any chance of some photos of your other R/C Thunderbolts?

Hi Russell.
It seems we will never know the exact colours used for the 63rd FS P-47M's. The only way this will be defined is by a witness statement from someone who was involved with the actual painting of the planes. As Dave points out in his post above, he has spoken to 56thFG Crew Chiefs and they dont remember the exact colours used.
On the R/C "Fireball" Azure Blue was used for the light blue, Insignia Blue for the dark areas, and an intermediate blue for the rudder.
On my P-47M I mixed up colours using Tamiya and Vallegio blues. I based my colour mixes on photos of the "Fireball" model that were sent to me by Russ Kyler ( pilot of "Lorene" and who also shared Fireball with Guss Kuhn), before Dave contacted me recently.
One things for certain.
Take 6 photographs from 6 different angles in 6 slightly different lighting conditions and you'll get 6 different looking colours.
Infact, its different lighting conditions, light refraction and angles the photos were taken from that led to all the debate about the "Plum" colour of the 61stFS P-47M's.
There was no "custom mixed from automotive paints etc etc colour". They were painted FLAT BLACK. All the talk about the plum/purple colour is pure conjecture.
Next time I build a P-47M I'll do a 61st FS version and paint it black.
I bet once Ive taken photos from different angles etc I can easily convince people its painted a plum/purple colour.
Nige